What if happiness at work wasn’t just a lucky accident? What if, instead of waiting for it to happen, we had the power to create it for ourselves? This is exactly what we explored in the latest episode of Sticky From The Inside with high-energy speaker, improv expert, and author Joel Zeff.
Joel is the author of Make The Right Choice: Lead with Passion, Elevate Your Team, Unleash the Fun at Work, and his mission is simple: to show people that happiness at work is a choice—one that we can actively make every single day.
The Myth That Happiness Just "Happens"
Too often, we fall into the trap of thinking that happiness at work is dependent on external factors—our boss, our workload, our company culture. But according to Joel, happiness is not something that happens to us; it’s something we create.
How do we do that? By celebrating small wins, embracing change, and surrounding ourselves with positive support.
"Ta-Da!" Moments: The Secret to Workplace Energy
One of the standout ideas from our conversation was the power of “Ta-Da!” moments.
Think about how kids celebrate everything—they take their first steps, they eat their vegetables, and we cheer them on with enthusiastic encouragement. As adults, we lose that. We stop celebrating our small wins. But Joel argues that if we take time to acknowledge our successes—big or small—it fuels confidence, motivation, and momentum.
Imagine if:✅ You gave yourself a mental "Ta-Da!" every time you finished a difficult task.✅ Teams celebrated progress instead of only big milestones.✅ Leaders recognized small wins in meetings and encouraged peer recognition.
These little moments of joy build positive energy, and that energy translates to productivity and engagement.
Improv Lessons for the Workplace: Embracing Change
Joel's background in improv comedy gives him a unique perspective on work and life. In improv, you never know what’s going to happen next. There’s no script. No planning. Just the ability to react, adapt, and say yes to the moment.
How does that apply to work?
Change is constant. We don’t control it, but we control how we react to it.
The best improvisers (and employees!) succeed because they stay flexible and open to opportunities.
Mistakes will happen—but when we remove the fear of failure, we unlock creativity, confidence, and better teamwork.
Fun at Work Isn’t a Luxury—It’s a Necessity
A common objection Joel hears is: "Work is serious. We don’t have time for fun."But here’s the truth: fun fuels performance.
Fun doesn’t mean playing games all day. It means enjoying what you do, feeling engaged, and having a sense of purpose.
When people have fun at work, they: ✅ Are more creative and open to problem-solving.✅ Bring more energy to their teams.✅ Feel more connected to their colleagues.✅ Perform better—because they actually care.
If you think fun and work don’t mix, you’re missing a huge opportunity to improve both morale and business results.
The Role of Positive Support in Workplace Happiness
Most of us thrive when we receive opportunity and positive support—but those are often the things we receive least in the workplace.
Joel encourages leaders and employees to ask a simple question:"How do I help the people around me be successful?"
Whether it’s saying "thank you," recognizing contributions, or just being an encourager, positive reinforcement builds confidence, teamwork, and engagement.
And if you’re not receiving that support? It might be time to find a workplace that values what you bring.
Listen to the Full Episode
Happiness at work isn’t an accident—it’s a series of small choices we make every day. Want to hear more from Joel Zeff? Listen to the full episode below and learn how to bring more energy, joy, and resilience to your work life, or read the full transcript which follows:
Full Transcript
[Andy Goram] (0:10 - 3:12)
Hello and welcome to Sticky from the Inside, the employee engagement podcast that looks at how to build stickier, competition smashing, consistently successful organisations from the inside out. I'm your host Andy Goram and I'm on a mission to help more businesses turn the lights on behind the eyes of their employees, light the fires within them and create tonnes more success for everyone. This podcast is for all those who believe that's something worth going after and would like a little help and guidance in achieving that.
Each episode we dive into the topics that can help create what I call stickier businesses, the sort of businesses where people thrive and love to work and where more customers stay with you and recommend you to others because they love what you do and why you do it. So if you want to take the tricky out of being sticky, listen on.
Why happiness at work is an active choice
Okay then, let's be honest, work can sometimes feel like a never-ending to-do list, a series of meetings that could have been emails and a place where fun is often an afterthought.
But what, what my friends, if it didn't have to be that way? What if happiness at work wasn't just a perk but something we could actively create for ourselves? Now that's exactly what we're diving into today.
My guest is Joel Zeff, a high energy speaker, improvisation expert and author of the fabulous book Make the Right Choice. Lead with passion, elevate your team and unleash the fun at work. Joel is all about celebrating those small wins or frankly what he calls, and this is brilliant, ta-da moments and using these as fuel for workplace happiness and success.
Because here's the thing, happiness at work doesn't just happen to us. It's something we can shape, influence and yes, maybe even take control of. It starts with the way that we show up, how we choose to embrace change, the support we give and receive from those around us and the moments, big and small, that we take the time to celebrate.
And when we start seeing happiness as an active choice rather than luck, I think everything shifts. Now Joel knows this better than most. His background in the art of improv has given him a unique perspective on why flexibility, presence and saying yes to the moment are essential, not just on stage but in our daily working lives.
So if you've ever felt like you're just going through the motions at work, maybe this conversation just might help you flip the script. So if you're ready to rethink what happiness at work really means and how to make it something you own rather than wait for, then maybe stick with us because I think this is going to be a fun one.
[Joel Zeff] (3:12 - 3:34)
Joel, welcome to the show, my friend. Thank you. That was the best introduction I have ever received in my career.
I'm going to edit that and I'm just going to send that to prospective clients. You want to know about me? Just listen to Andy.
If you can't sell me, I don't know who's going to sell me. The best introduction I've ever received.
[Andy Goram] (3:34 - 4:24)
Well, that's so sweet of you. I appreciate that. This is a conversation I have really been looking forward to, not just because of geeking out about improv, but really, really, really getting into this, I think, so much overlooked topic of happiness, which I think can be completely misunderstood as something all fluffy and lovely.
This is about really setting people up for success at work and recognising success, something I think that we are all for. Certainly in the UK, we are awful at recognising success. But before I get all hot under the collar and start getting into the conversation, you say I've just sold you, lovely, and given you a super introduction, but tell us a little bit more about your background and how you've landed up, talking about, very successfully, I might add, talking about this topic and wowing audiences all over the globe.
Joel Zeff’s journey from journalism to improv and workplace happiness
[Joel Zeff] (4:25 - 7:15)
Well, I started as a newspaper reporter. I was a journalist. That's my degree.
And I love telling people stories. And that gravitated kind of worked into, I found myself in advertising and PR, worked for a couple agencies. Now, when I was a journalist, the last day I lost my job, the newspaper closed.
So I had a lot of free time all of a sudden. And I started doing comedy, started doing stand-up comedy and improv comedy. And it was like the movies, you know, where the protagonist goes somewhere and there's a light and the music goes, that's, that's what it was.
When it was love at first sight, there was an energy. I didn't know how I was going to do this or what's going to happen, but I needed, I knew that I needed improv. And so I, I took a couple of workshops.
Obviously I was unemployed at the moment, so had plenty of free time. And, uh, and so I had a severance check and free time. And that says comedy more than anything that says, go do stand-up, go try out improv.
And so I, when I was working at a PR agency, cause I needed a job and, you know, cause I like to eat and pay rent as most of us do. It's a habit. Yeah, it is.
It gets into a habit of eating and you can't, it's hard to break. And so one of my clients was a technology company and they said, uh, we know you do improv on the weekends. We're having this executive retreat.
Can you come up, play some of those improv games with us before dinner? That'd be a lot of fun. And I said, uh, sure.
Why not? I got some, I got time. And I took another performer with me and.
You know, it was all men, all VP level, all from a technology company. So not the greatest audience you could put together in one room to start a career, but somehow magic happened. I had fun.
They had fun. And the light bulb started flickering. And that was the beginning.
And I didn't know that that was going to be my career. I didn't know that I was going to become a keynote speaker. I didn't even know there were speakers.
I didn't even know that was a option. I just love doing it. And just like anything, you put some energy towards something, you put your passion toward it.
All of a sudden the phone starts ringing, people start knocking on the door, asking you, Hey, can you do some of that with us or with our group? And it wasn't about money. It wasn't about, uh, I, you know, I, I need to be paid a certain amount.
It was just my love of sharing improv. And it just, one thing led to another. And next thing, you know, 2,500 events later, I'm talking to you, Andy.
It took 2,500 events to get.
[Andy Goram] (7:16 - 8:04)
I am grateful for every single one of those events that brought us here because you just talk about energy. You have a really magnetic energy about you. I mean, even from our very first conversation, I had to go and have a bit of a sit down and just, um, I was so buzzed and hyped from our conversation about what our conversation was going to be like.
Oh, that's very nice. But that's, I don't know how to describe that because not everybody has that do that. I mean, but you can find it within yourself.
Some people, it's far more natural. Some people, you have to kind of dial those things up when you're thinking about improv with that panel of, frankly, the least likely people to enjoy an improv situation. I imagine the personality came out of all those guys though, right?
The role of play in unlocking confidence and creativity
[Joel Zeff] (8:04 - 9:58)
For sure. For sure. Uh, everybody wants to play.
Everybody wants to have fun. Sometimes we forget. And sometimes we don't give ourselves permission to play and have fun.
And so I kind of see myself as a leader, you know, the Pied Piper, a guiding light to kind of unlock that option to play that option to have fun. And when I go speak at a conference and we play some improv games and I share my love of improv and I'm passionate about it. So I'm energized about it and I'm having a great time.
I'm having fun. It's rewarding and fulfilling. I tell people all the time, when you hire me to come speak on your, at your conference to step on that stage.
I'm not charging you to be on stage. That's free. I love this.
What you, what I'm charging is to be away from my family, to travel, to sit by the guy on the airplane. That's, you know, chewing his nails and watching a movie with no headphones and taking his socks off. We all know that guy, right?
All know that guy. And that's what I'm charging for. And to be on stage is my love.
It's my passion. And so when we play these improv games and we unlock that and people have fun and, and, you know, most of the time I'm speaking at conferences and they've maybe had a tough time. Maybe there was a merger, a layoff, a situation.
It's been a tough year, the economy, but to create some energy, to have fun. And then people realize that this is fulfilling. It energizes them.
And that passion leads to success. It leads to great customer service, sales, marketing, whatever you do, you're going to be better when you have, when you're fulfilled and you're rewarded.
[Andy Goram] (9:58 - 10:18)
Well, I guess at that point you're able to be, this is an overused phrase, but your most authentic self, you can be really present in it and you can relax that the fact that you're going to bring a really good energy about it, bring that with you. And that's going, that's going to be imparted on the people that you're with.
[Joel Zeff] (10:18 - 11:34)
Well, you're absolutely right. When you play, you're your true self, right? When, you know, get your friends together, play a board game.
You'll figure out who the micromanager of the group is really quickly, right? Because that person's going to go through the rules and make sure everybody's following the rules. You're going to figure out who the person that's just going to bring joy and they're going to have fun.
You're going to figure out who the person is that's, you know, gets frustrated very easily and just has a negative energy about them. When we play, we're our true selves. And improv was created by a woman named Viola Spolin.
And she created improv at NYU in the late thirties, early forties as a teaching tool, because that's what she believed. If you play a game, her students are going to be their true authentic selves. And they're going to take some of these pressures away, some of these frustrations, some of these fears away.
And it's going to be easier to engage with what she's teaching. And they're going to retain that, that message. And it's the same concept.
I'm using the same concept. I'm playing a game. I want people to laugh, but I'm using that game as a, as a visual storyboard to talk about these messages about great leadership, great teamwork, how we have to embrace change and find success during change.
[Andy Goram] (11:34 - 12:13)
And I really want to dig into those things and your perspective on that. But before I do, I think this thing about play is really interesting because for, I'm going to use a generalized statement, which may be incorrect, but many adults don't let up. We don't let ourselves play.
We feel almost embarrassed or awkward about playing. You can see it sometimes when, even when a parent is with their little kids playing, they're almost looking over their shoulder and says, should I be doing this? You must come across the kind of the release or the failure to release the ability to play in people all the time.
The power of small celebrations: Why “Ta-Da!” moments matter
[Joel Zeff] (12:14 - 14:04)
Absolutely. And one of my absolute favorite things that happened after I speak is someone comes up to me and says, Bob, that was on stage and Bob, you know, maybe Bob was a ballerina or he imitated a bull rider. And someone said, Bob is the most introverted person in our office.
And I'm always surprised by what people do on stage. And it's really invigorating to see people light up. And because what I'm doing is I'm giving them opportunity to be creative, to play, to have fun, but also the opportunity to be accountable, to take ownership, to be a great leader, to be a great teammate.
And then what's happening is the audience is creating positive support. They're applauding, they're laughing. And when you put those two things together, it's pretty amazing what people can accomplish.
And you could see it in their body language. As soon as they get a laugh, as soon as the audience applaud, and maybe sometimes I'm going to start that applause, or maybe I'm going to give them some positive support just to get them in the flow of the game. And their shoulders rear back, their eyes kind of lighten up.
And they do more. They take more risks. They're more creative.
What happens? More positive support, more laughter, more applause. What do they do?
They do even more. It's an amazing chemistry. And that's what every person wants out of their jobs.
Whether we know it or not, we want opportunity and positive support. Unfortunately, those are the two things we don't receive enough of. And so we have to fight for it.
We have to demand it. We have to make sure that we receive opportunity and positive support. And if we're a leader, we need to make sure that we give our team opportunity and positive support, because that's where the magic happens.
[Andy Goram] (14:05 - 14:20)
Yeah. And I think we'll dig into that a bit later, because I think everybody needs a cheerleader. I mean, you might not think you want to go out and buy one today, but life without one is pretty sad.
It feels great when someone's a cheerleader for you. And that just encourages you to kind of do some more great things, right?
[Joel Zeff] (14:21 - 15:11)
And if you're, if you're not receiving a round of applause, then you just have to give it to yourself. I tell people all the time, I'm like, look, I have a job where I get a round of applause. It's pretty awesome.
I do my job. I get applause. That's pretty cool.
I don't even have to be that good. Like I can have a bad day. I can have a bad day and people still, oh, he's amazing.
You know, I still get applause. They might say, ah, he was okay, but they're still applauding. You know, most people have a job.
They don't get that round of applause when they're, uh, as they're in it, their accounting, they're in HR, they're in marketing, they're in sales. No one's giving them applause. They deserve it.
Absolutely. They deserve it. And so if, if someone's not giving you that round of applause and you have to give it to yourself, as soon as you just show up for work, you just, people will look at you strange and you just go, People looked at me strange throughout my career, Joel.
[Andy Goram] (15:11 - 15:41)
I'm not sure what things to do with me capping myself, but that whole piece about celebration. Cause I really want to have a look at the whole tada factor with you today. But even the notion for some people listening to this of, um, giving yourself a big up or celebrating yourself, or like you just sort of said, just giving yourself a little crap feels alien or feels out of place or feels wrong.
Uh, to some people you encounter that a lot with the people that you talk to.
[Joel Zeff] (15:42 - 18:02)
I think, you know, uh, you mentioned the tada and what that is from, I don't know, maybe in the UK, in the UK, do we say tada? Of course we do. Yeah.
Okay, great. Fantastic. So the magician, I was, I was, I was in London in November.
Uh, I did not hear a tada. So, uh, uh, so, uh, you know, the tada is a celebration. It's a flourish.
When our, when our kids were younger, everything was a tada. We celebrated everything. They, they, they clean up after themselves.
They walk, they, uh, you know, don't spill. They eat their whole sandwich. Tada.
You did it. Right. And what happens?
They build confidence. We give them positive support. They get a big smile on their face, whatever we're celebrating, they do more of.
Yeah. And so as we get older, as you mentioned, it becomes more foreign, more alien. This is just part of our day.
Why do we need to celebrate? But that celebration is energy. It's, it creates a passion.
It creates fuel. And if we don't have that fuel, then, you know, how do we reach our goals? How do we find success?
How are we a great innovator, a great communicator, a great leader? And so we need that fuel, that positive support, that celebration. And, and when at the beginning of my keynote, I had the whole group stand up and we do tada.
And absolutely, there's going to be some people in the back that half-ass it. Can I, can I, can I say half-ass? You can, you carry on my friend.
I think I just did. So, and you know, and they, they kind of, and we do it again, they look around, they realize everybody else in the room is doing it. And that is creates a support mechanism because we're doing it together.
And they realize, Hey, that's pretty cool. Right. And we have to celebrate.
We do great things every day with our customers, with our team, with our partners. And that celebration is very important because it fuels that passion. It fuels that happiness.
And that's what we're after to be fulfilled and rewarded at work. And even at your very first job, you might not be in the job that you see yourself at in 10 years, or that this is your career goal. I remember one of my first jobs was at a movie theater.
Have you, have you ever, have you worked at a movie theater, Andy?
[Andy Goram] (18:02 - 18:14)
Well, my granddad, God rest his soul, used to run a very big cinema in London. So as a kid, as a little kid, I used to get run around behind the scenes in a cinema, go in, go in the projection room and everything. Amazing.
[Joel Zeff] (18:15 - 19:26)
Yeah. So, well, it's not so amazing when you work there and you have to pick up people's trash or you have to clean the popcorn machine or the hotdog machine, which is gross, but that was my first job. So I'm basically picking up people's trash as my first job.
And that really taught me that you better have fun at work, no matter what your job is, or it's going to be a dreary, tough time. And so the people that I worked with, we found ways to, to have fun, to energize each other, even though we picked up people's trash or we're polishing brass railing for days on end. It's finding and choosing how you work, right?
Choosing that happiness, finding that happiness. And that was a very important lesson. And I kept that with me everywhere that I went.
And also the other thing I learned is that I do not leave my trash behind. If I go to a sporting event, a movie theater, I do not put my trash under the chair and forget about it. I, I carry out my trash and I make sure my children carry out their trash.
Because once you pick up people's trash, you do not leave trash. You understand, you have real empathy for that.
[Andy Goram] (19:26 - 19:27)
I get it. Rubbish.
[Joel Zeff] (19:27 - 19:29)
We call it rubbish in the UK, right?
[Andy Goram] (19:29 - 19:39)
We do call it rubbish. Well done. I think we're really crossing the cultural divide here with, with the language that we're using today.
I'm doing good, huh? I think you're doing superb, my friend, superb.
[Joel Zeff] (19:40 - 19:43)
Last night I watched All Creatures Great and Small just to prepare for this interview.
[Andy Goram] (19:43 - 19:53)
Well, thank you very much. And I think all the people in Yorkshire really appreciate that. And if we can talk about anything with cows and very long gloves, we will, I'm sure it's at some, some time.
[Joel Zeff] (19:53 - 19:57)
My wife and I love that show. We're very, we're huge fans.
[Andy Goram] (19:57 - 20:27)
I never, ever underestimate the, the, uh, the differences in language I had. Uh, in fact, the episode before this with Peggy Sullivan, she, she corpsed in a pre-chat when I said, oh yeah, we're going to smash this episode. She was like, this is not something we, we use in the States.
Can you explain to me what this means? And, uh, she, she was tickled by that. So yeah, I think all of the language stuff is, is funny.
It's just grounds for fun ultimately.
[Joel Zeff] (20:28 - 20:36)
Unless of course I say the wrong thing. I think you, I think you have better words for a lot of things. I think rubbish is a bet as a much better word than trash.
[Andy Goram] (20:36 - 20:38)
It's just a great sounding word as well. You know?
[Joel Zeff] (20:38 - 20:41)
Yeah. Yeah. Lift is a way better word than elevator.
[Andy Goram] (20:42 - 21:41)
I mean, it's seen as a spell, um, for lots and lots of people. I think this is where we're playing around and having fun has to link back to this, this world of work that we're in. Right.
Just even like we're just mucking about talking rubbish about language, it's just having a bit of a giggle. It's having a bit of fun. We're still gonna get to the heart of the matter here of this celebration thing, this having fun.
I think it's so sad that more people don't have it. And look, I've experienced incredibly fun times at work and I've experienced horrible, horrible times at work. I think what's fascinating about your take on the whole thing is how much agency people have in that rather than victims and reacting to it.
Actually, there's a whole piece in here about actually going after it and seizing it and making something yourself. You want to just sort of like explain to us why you're so steadfast in your belief that that is the case.
How improv teaches us to embrace change and react with confidence
[Joel Zeff] (21:41 - 26:05)
I think you have control and I think we control how we react to change. That's what improv teaches us to embrace change and that you have control how you react to change. So for those listening, you know, improv is an art form.
There's no script, there's no rehearsal, there's no plan. And so to be successful, some choices have to be made. I have no control over my teammate, the other performer, what words that they are saying, what actions they are doing.
I have no control over that, but I do have control how I react to it. If you really watch improv, the real power sometimes is how you react. That's where the comedy, the humor, the true power is and how you react to change.
So I don't control change, but I do control how I react to that change. I had an interview yesterday. We're talking about return to the office.
You know, there's obviously a big movement. A lot of industries and companies are bringing their employees back to the office. And we really focused on embracing this change.
I don't control that I have to return to the office, but I control how I react to it. So I can be positive and supportive and helpful. I can be open and flexible.
Maybe I discover that this is a better fit for me. I'm around people. We can go to lunch.
I go, there's a group of people. We go to lunch. We go and have coffee together.
Maybe I realized that being around people creates an energy, creates an excitement, helps me be more innovative, better communicator, better at my job. I don't know. And you might, or you might discover, you know what, this isn't a fit for me.
I prefer to work at home. And then you need to go make that choice and go find a job, a company, an industry that does allow you to work from home, because there are those options. You have to embrace that change and you have to be in control of that change.
And, and when that happens, when you're prepared for change, when you embrace change, when you're open and flexible, you, you have more power changes. And so scary, it's not going to frustrate you. It's going to empower you.
And that's really what, what improv teaches us. The other thing you mentioned about, about fun and, you know, and, and realizing that you're not having fun at work, you know, we make choices. And in the beginning of our lives, when we're kids, my minor, uh, I have an 18 year old and a 22 year old.
Oh, almost every, almost every choice they make is based on, is this fun? Right. When you're 18, early twenties, almost every choice in your life is based on, is this fun?
And as we get older, we start making choices that aren't based on fun. They're based on career finances, family. We make decisions, small decisions, but they start adding up.
And then we realize we're at a job that we're not passionate about. We're doing work that we're not excited about because we made all these little decisions that were not based on fun. And we realize we're not having fun.
And so I think part of embracing that change and having that power is that we need to make decisions that are based on fun. And, you know, we are talking about all the work about doing a podcast, right? Yeah.
It's a lot of work. And people ask me all the time. Why, why don't you have a podcast?
I said, because that doesn't sound like fun to me. That's, that's really, if you want to know why I don't do things, then not fun. I try to base as many decisions on my work as I can.
Is this based on fun? Am I going to have fun? Am I going to enjoy the process?
Sometimes a client might not have the budget. I don't say no, I have taken many jobs based on this is going to be fun. I'm working with a, um, a good friend who we met at a conference.
Uh, and he's, uh, we're doing a, he's putting together a charity event. I'm not getting any, I'm not being paid, but I want to spend time with my friend. I want to go play golf.
And so I'm making that choice because it's fun. Not because of finances or I might lose money because somebody else will want to hire me that day and I'm gonna have to turn it down. I'm making that decision based on fun.
[Andy Goram] (26:06 - 26:47)
I think this is really, really interesting. There's two things I want to sort of just pick up on here. I think just coming back to the improv stuff, I think what's wonderful about how you've just sort of phrased that it's, I think it's obvious when you see it in retrospect, but maybe not if you've never done it.
But the changes that are happening in an improv sketch are seen as an opportunity to go somewhere else and have some fun and do something different or, or exaggerate it or continue it. Every bit of change is an opportunity. If you see it that way, as opposed to, oh my God, what am I going to do now?
Which I'm sure there is a fleeting moment of that, but it's a, it's an opportunity, right?
The myth that fun at work means less productivity
[Joel Zeff] (26:48 - 28:12)
It is absolutely an opportunity. It's embracing that change and not being afraid of it. You may make a mistake.
It's also, it's also eliminating some of the fears of making a mistake of saying something that's not funny or saying something that's not, that's, that's wrong. So we're eliminating some of that and that gives us a freedom, right? And that freedom to have fun and play will create, hopefully will create success.
And I think that's what, when I, when I talk about innovation to, um, to the groups, when I speak to them, I really talk about that freedom because, you know, we're afraid people, you know, so many times, I'm sure you've heard that people, people are afraid of public speaking. Oh yeah. They're, they're not, what they're really afraid of is they're afraid of making a mistake or, uh, forgetting, uh, to say something or stumbling over their words.
I do all of that all the time. And, and I'm a professional. You have to be, you, you can't be afraid of that.
And you have to embrace that you will make mistakes. And when you do that, that freedom creates something really awesome and that you match it with opportunity. You match it with positive support and that freedom will lead to a lot of success.
[Andy Goram] (28:12 - 29:07)
I believe that too. I also think, cause I think that's fascinating because I love standing up. Right.
I love facilitating a room. I really, really enjoy that stuff. And occasionally people want to know about tips for public speaking.
And, and I feel a bit of a fraud, uh, saying that sort of stuff, because I think you just got to be, you've got to enjoy it. You've got to be present. But I also think I love the list of things that you said people are worried about when it comes to public speaking.
I also think there's a little bit of people not wanting to do the work to practice, to get themselves in a situation where they don't have to think about the words, they know that they're all good and they can engage the audience as opposed to trying to remember the words. And that takes a bit of work. And sometimes it is, well, I should just be able to pitch up and have a quick look at a script and say, or I should just naturally know what to say.
People work very, very, very, very hard on appearing to be spontaneous when it comes to things like comedy and what have you.
[Joel Zeff] (29:08 - 31:43)
What happens is you put so much time into it and again, it's building that confidence. And that's what I really want leaders to understand that, uh, or, or, or people that listen to a podcast like this is that you're building confidence. And when you build that confidence, that's really what's what that's what really leads to success because I put all that time in and then I've released my fears.
I've released, you know, that I'm going to forget something, or I'm going to make a mistake or stumble on my words. And then I'm okay with it because I put so much time into it. And so that time, what we need to do and what to encourage, what I, what I like to encourage people when we're talking about building that confidence is what, what it means to our success as, as leaders, as teammates.
And I think if you want to have great teamwork and great leadership and build those confident and build that confidence, it's asking a question. How do I help the people around me be successful? Right.
If you, you watch an improv game and that's the other thing that's happening. Yes. We're confident.
Yes. We're embracing change, but we're also thinking about every performer on stage with me. I want them to be successful.
It's not about me being a star, not about me being the best or the funniest. It's about what can I do to make sure that they are successful? So I'm asking a question.
What are the, how do I help the people around me be successful? Answer the question. More importantly, acting on it.
I'm giving them something so that they can build on so they can move forward. That's when real magic happens in improv game. And we take that to our work about having fun, about creating a great teams and being great leaders.
We could just, just absolutely just distill everything down to that question. How do I help people around me be successful? That's an easy question.
You know, the answer, you know, what your customers need, you know, what your team needs, you know, what everybody around you needs to be successful. The hard part is to act on it. And when you do, it's going to come back.
10 fold, a hundred fold asking that question, answering more importantly, acting on it. That's going to build confidence, confidence in your leadership, confidence in the team. And what is that going to, that's going to lead to just this incredible rapport, this incredible culture and energy that's going to create passion and happiness and fulfillment.
[Andy Goram] (31:44 - 33:00)
This is why I think it's such an interesting perspective to think about the game of, of, of improv and business, because if you don't, if you're... I love the fact that you use the word game as well, if you're doing an improv game or a sketch, I mean, just games just says play all the time. Right. But if, if, if you're doing a, an improv sketch and you're not thinking about the guys who are with you on stage and setting them up and giving them opportunity to kind of bring this on, it doesn't work, it falls flat, it stops and the audience feels awkward and doesn't, doesn't enjoy themselves.
And in business, if we get into this overly competitive fiefdom dominated siloed piece of working, it's the same. The organization doesn't win on the back of it. So I love the parallels here, but I have to ask us both a question because we look, we're really passionate about this stuff.
You can tell we, we, we enjoy it, but there will be other people. And you may even come across them in all of your work who say, this is all wonderful, but you're trivializing it because work is hard and difficult. And this whole subject of fun is, is trivializing what we've got to do.
What do you say when you get that kind of challenge?
[Joel Zeff] (33:00 - 33:17)
Uh, I start to cry tears come down my chin. I'm like the sadness in that person's question and that sadness in that person's being. They need a pug or a cupcake or something.
I don't know. A cup of tea. Did I say that right?
[Andy Goram] (33:17 - 33:23)
A cup of tea will work. I mean, you're really killing it today with this. (Thank you.)
The, the Anglo stuff. It's great.
[Joel Zeff] (33:26 - 33:28)
Put on a brew. That was, that was in last night's episode.
[Andy Goram] (33:28 - 33:35)
Listen, mate, you're absolutely bossing the, the, the English reference, my listners will love it.
[Joel Zeff] (33:35 - 33:39)
I think I'm doing good. I think I'm doing good.
Uh, what was the question?
[Andy Goram] (33:39 - 33.44)
When you get these, these people saying you're trivializing stuff with this fun message.
Redefining fun: Why it looks different for everyone
[Joel Zeff] (33:44 - 36:04)
Yeah. It's a myth. I talk about this in the book.
It's a myth and there's several myths that are associated with fun myth. We don't have time for fun. How, how, how can you love what you do if you don't have fun?
And it's not about clowns and jugglers, you know, and improv games. Fun is many different things, right? Fun means something different to me than it means to you.
What you have to find what your fun is. You know, you remember the kid in school that loved solving a math problem? You know, they did a algebra or geometry problem and they solved it and they were just so excited.
That was not me. I can't do math. I hate math.
There's nothing in my brain that's been shut down, closed off, locked off for a long time. But there are people that love to solve a math problem. That's their fun.
Or maybe an accountant that all the numbers add up on the right. So what is your fun? So of course there's time to have fun.
Fun means different things to everyone. Making a big sale might be fun. Going to a conference and learning from other people in your industry.
That's fun. So that's a myth that you don't have time for fun or a myth that we're, we're not a fun business. Again, that's sad.
Of course. What, what, think about what you do. You know, I always ask that question and you know, the company, you know, that says, um, let's take, for instance, let's give an, uh, you know, property management, right?
We manage, um, manage apartments. That's not fun. Well, if you think about it that way, what are you really doing?
You are giving people a place to live. You're helping people create a home. And that home has memories of birthdays and anniversaries and, and first apartments out of college.
Now that starts to sound pretty fun to me. If you think about what you're truly doing, what are you truly doing? What is, we got to sometimes get to the, to the, what you really are doing.
Um, you know, you're bringing joy. That's pretty exciting. When you think about that.
[Andy Goram] (36:04 - 36:29)
I absolutely think this is where the practical real definition of things like purpose and meaning really show up at work. Cause that's what you just described to me. You know, it's not that I just sell apartments.
It's what's behind that. You're giving people opportunity to set up a home and build a life and create memories. And that that's, that's a purpose to what, to what you do. .
[Joel Zeff] (36:30 - 39:36)
You can do any industry. If what you truly, truly do, you know, um, I have a, let's talk. I have a lot of hospitality clients, hotels, you know, think about what kind of joy that you truly, if you are in maintenance or, um, you know, accounting or HR or marketing, you're still part of bringing, that's a somebody's vacation. How much joy that you're part of that you're creating.
If you're not there, then that joy isn't created. Right. You're part of that process.
Yeah, of course you are. And so I think you have to really look at what you truly, truly do. And the myth that you're not a fun company there.
I guarantee every company you should be, if you really think about what you truly do is going to be fun or the myth that there's not time for fun time. Of course there's time. You've got to take a moment to re-energize, to refuel.
Even if you just take a walk around the office, that's fun. You're not doing, uh, you're not staring at your computer, but what you're doing is refueling and re-energizing. So of course there's time to have fun because if you don't, you're just going to burn out.
You're not going to be at your best. So there's all these myths about fun and you have to figure out what fun is to you. What, what's going to, what's going to really fulfill and reward you.
What is that? Ask yourself, what's going to truly make you happy? Not more money.
That happiness is only going to last to the next paycheck. And you're right back where you started. What is that happiness?
What does that fulfillment look like? Do you want a different role? Do you want a different responsibility?
Do you want to, uh, the opportunity to go to a conference? Do you want more training? Do you want a mentor?
What is that opportunity? And that's going to be your true fun, your guiding light. And then the second surprise is when you tell your manager, this is what I need here to be happy.
This is what I need here to have fun, to be fulfilled. You're going to be surprised how easy it is for that manager to give that opportunity to you. And because when they get back in return, a passionate, energized team member that's going to help them reach their goals.
Now, if that manager does not give you that opportunity, that's a big clue. You're in the wrong place. And I don't care.
You know, I've been doing this a long time, gone through many recessions and economic downturns. And the constant is always, there's always jobs, right? Someone is always hiring.
Every time someone wants, every time there's a recession, economic downturn, all my clients are still saying to me, Oh, we're still hiring. We're always looking for passionate, energized people. People are always looking for great team members.
So don't be afraid to go look and find that opportunity because that's, what's going to fulfill you. That's, what's going to reward you. And that's going to make, create that happiness.
And fun.
Finding meaning in work and connecting with purpose
[Andy Goram] (39:38 - 41:10)
There's so many things I love about what you've sort of said in the last 40 odd minutes, but certainly in the last few minutes, because I think coming back to what you said about, well, I think you've redefined fun for a lot of, for a lot of listeners, even the piece about recognizing the different diverse skills and perspectives that people bring to an organization and allowing them to bring those forward, that that can be fun, right?
Being able to kind of show your skills off, being able to show your expertise off, being able to play more in that field. That can be fun. And then I think if anything has been communicated by you today, there's a massive difference between having fun and slacking off.
And this is where I think organizations need to pull their head out of the. The backside a bit and just be thinking about stop. Stop taking it down to the lowest common denominator.
Fun. Doesn't mean people will slack it off and not working and not getting stuff done. I know I am at my most creative, productive and energized when I am having fun.
If you want good shits out of me, put me in an environment where I'm going to have fun and you'll get great stuff out. And I, I thank you for kind of like communicating those sort of messages today, because I hate myself asking that what's it feel like when you're told you're trivializing this stuff? Because I think that's the problem.
I think too many people trivialize this stuff.
[Joel Zeff] (41:11 - 44:13)
If you're not passionate about what you do, how are, how are you having fun? And it's about caring. If you care, you're going to have passion, right?
You're not going to have passion unless you really care about something. And you're not going to care about something unless you're given responsibility and ownership. Why would I care if there's no ownership or responsibility?
Why would I expect my team to care if I don't give them ownership and responsibility and why would I expect them to have passion if I don't, if they don't care just because they come walk through that door and I pay them a salary. Doesn't I, there's no expectation of passion. I don't want, there's nothing in, uh, in the agreement that you have to have passion.
You just, I'm expecting you to do your job. I would love for you to have passion because I think you're going to be at your best and the results are going to speak for themselves, but I've got to create the foundation for that passion. I want you to care.
And how do I get you to care? I give you ownership and responsibility and all that happens. And I think there's a weaving through all of that is a spirit, is a fun, you know, uh, and I think it's important to, to create that no matter what you do.
I, I've one time, sometimes I play a game. Where, uh, I give a team where we have teams, let's say five to eight people and I give them a made up product. And then the team has to come up in a very short amount of time.
They have to come up what that product is, what it does, what the features are. And then they have to do a presentation, like an advertising jingle, a role play, a commercial. And I give them a very short amount of time.
So there had to be very focused and they have so much fun. They're laughing. They're creating, has nothing to do with work.
And then we stop and we go, okay, now we're going to have some very big work topics. We come up with some big four or five big work questions. I want you to work together with the same team.
I want you to be creative, come up with ideas, just like what you did for the previous game. And then the room gets really quiet and everybody's very serious because now we're, we're focused. We're on work.
Before that, that was just silliness and fun. And I have to stop everybody. I said, what made that first exercise so fun?
And they talk about the energy and building off each other's ideas and everybody was an equal and everybody had an equal value and equal voice. I said, just because we're looking at serious ideas doesn't, I don't want you to leave all that energy and fun behind. I want you to incorporate that because I think the result is going to be much more successful.
And all of a sudden they, the, the aha moment happens and then the room is loud and there's energy and people are sharing ideas and they're much more successful because we introduced that and we gave permission for that fun.
Sticky Notes – Three takeaways for taking control of happiness at work
[Andy Goram] (44:15 - 44:36)
I love that. And that is such a nice way, I think of leading into the ridiculous question I now have to ask you, which is to summarize up all the things that you think give people agency over being happy at work. It's sticky notes time, Joel.
So three pearls of wisdom that we could stick on three little sticky notes, my friend. What would they be?
[Joel Zeff] (44:36 - 45:39)
I love, I love this concept and I, I thought about it. I probably overthought. Number one, celebrate your ta-da moments.
Celebrate ta-da moments. That's what I want to see on a, on a sticky note. And I want to encourage people to celebrate these moments to create energy.
Number two is create positive support. Say thank you. Or maybe, maybe the sticky note should say, just say thank you.
We'll make it easy. It's not a big, it's not a big sticky note. I mean, I feel like small, you know, but say thank you.
And so that will encourage people when they go home from work to think about all the people that deserve that positive support and appreciation tomorrow, give that gift. Cause it is a gift. Doesn't take any money.
Barely takes any time to say thank you. And I appreciate you. And the third one is embrace change.
I think that is a philosophy that will reduce our frustration and our negativity, if we just embrace the change.
[Andy Goram] (45:40 - 45:41)
Those are good. Those are good sticky notes.Those are great sticky notes.
[Joel Zeff] (45:41 - 45:42)
Those are going to be for sale.
[Andy Goram] (45:42 - 46:01)
They'll be very popular on the Instagram channel. Don't you worry about that, Joel. Joel, I have, goodness me, absolutely loved meeting you and getting to speak to you.
I am incredibly grateful of your time. Before I let you go, my friend, where can people find out more about you? Where can they get hold of the book?
[Joel Zeff] (46:01 - 46:56)
So my website is my name, joelzeff.com, J O E L Z E F F dot com. And so there's links to the book and my keynotes and videos. But for social media, LinkedIn is my preferred social media.
So I would love for people to connect. Send me a note, but the book is available. Amazon UK.
Make the right choice. Lead with passion, elevate your team, unleash the fun at work. Everything that we talked about today, Andy, in much greater detail.
Each chapter has lots of ideas to create fun, to embrace change, to create opportunity and positive support, to be a great leader, a great communicator, great teammate. And, uh, it's engaging and fun. The book is about, I want people to have fun when they read the book and, and, and learn about all these great messages that improv has taught me.
[Andy Goram] (46:57 - 47:05)
I am 100% sure that that is what's going to happen. Joel, you're a superstar. Thank you so much for coming on.
Really appreciate it, my friend.
[Joel Zeff] (47:05 - 47:21)
It's my pleasure. Thank you, Andy. And, uh, uh, I look if, and if there's someone listening that can bring me to the UK to come speak, I'm ready because that's going to be fun.
I've, I've spoken one time in the UK, one time in, um, at the University of Warwick.
[Andy Goram] (47:21 - 48:10)
Warwick. Warwick. Yeah. That's an interesting English word to spell.
And I visited Warwick castle. Well, let's hope we get you back, my friend. Let's hope we get you back.
Joel, you take care, my friend. See you soon.
[Joel Zeff] (48:10 - 48:12)
Thank you, Andy.
Okay, everyone. That was Joel Zeff. And if you'd like to find out a bit more about him or any of the things that we've talked about today, please check out the show notes.
So that concludes today's episode. I hope you've enjoyed it, found it interesting and heard something maybe that will help you become a stickier, more successful business from the inside going forward. If you have, please like comment and subscribe.
It really helps. I'm Andy Goram and you've been listening to the sticky from the inside podcast. Until next time.
Thanks for listening.
Andy Goram is the owner of Bizjuicer, an employee engagement and workplace culture consultancy that's on a mission to help people have more fulfilling work lives. He's also the host of the Sticky From The Inside Podcast, which talks to experts on these topics from around the world.
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