I have a real problem with the word "integrity."
It's not the word, or it's definition, or what it stands for, that I have a problem with though. No, it's how it is thrown into so many lists of company values as a must have item, but without any real thought as to how it really shows up in an organisation.
If you really need to have a value that effectively says we won't lie, or see through our commitments, you're either working for some criminal organisation, or you've got other more serious things to sort out than a list of corporate values.
Don't get me wrong. I think a great set of meaningful, well articulated, lived and breathed expected behaviours that help guide the ship through stormy waters, add genuine value to how people work together and make decisions each day, and that differentiate you from your competition, are something every organisation should have. I just hate the way words like integrity are just tossed in as a meaningless staple. If you need to convey that sense of doing the right thing when no-one is watching and valuing accountability, then say that in a way that really sounds like your organisation, so people get what it means.
Anyway, I'm sure we've all got trigger words, and mine's integrity. Which is why I jumped at the chance to speak to Jeff Klubeck on a recent episode of Sticky From The Inside. Jeff's an adjunct professor of communication, sought-after speaker and author of the book "The Integrity Game, which unpacks the whole integrity thing through a baseball parable. The book contains a 10-point model for playing the integrity game, which shows the depth and breadth that really lies behind my trigger word.
You can listen to the episode using the player below, or read the automated transcript that follows on beneath. By listening or reading you'll see that there's much more to living with integrity than whacking it on a wall mural with a list of other buzzwords, that people walk-by blindly in your workplace everyday. And if you do realise the full meaning of it, then your life can take on a whole different meaning of its own.
Podcast Transcript
Podcast Introduction
00:00:10 - Andy Goram
Hello and welcome to Sticky from the Inside, the employee engagement podcast that looks at how to build stickier competition, smashing consistently successful organisations from the inside out. I'm your host, Andy Goram, and I'm on a mission to help more businesses turn the lights on behind the eyes of their employees, light the fires within them, and create tons more success for everyone. This podcast is for all those who believe that's something worth going after and would like a little help and guidance in achieving that. Each episode we dive into the topics that can help create what I call stickier businesses. The sort of businesses where people thrive and love to work, and where more customers stay with you and recommend you to others because they love what you do and why you do it. So if you want to take the tricky out of being sticky, listen on.
The Meaning Of Integrity
Okay then. Today we're going to discuss a word that when it comes to doing values work with clients, I can tell you it can be pretty divisive. And that word is integrity. Now, when I'm doing values work with the clients, it's a word that when it appears on the list, it gives me the shivers. And I'll tell you why. Because often exec teams think it should absolutely be there. We have to have integrity as a value, Andy. But scratch beneath the surface of what that really means, and more often than not, there's very little meaning behind it, or at least an understanding of how that really shows up in the workplace or how it differentiates your organisation from others. The word alone is not enough. I think it needs more commitment behind it to be truly valuable and useful.
So what does integrity mean to you? Is it simply doing the right thing when no one else is watching? Or does it encompass something deeper, influencing every aspect of your personal and professional life? In today's working environment, maintaining integrity can be challenging. Leaders are often caught between the pressures of achieving the numbers and upholding ethical standards, which can lead to disengagement and disillusioned employees. So how do we bridge this gap and create a culture where integrity truly thrives and means something? And to help us explore this today, I am delighted to be joined by Jeff Klubeck. Jeff's not only a seasoned coach and a sought after speaker, but also the author of a fabulous book called The Integrity Game, a book that uses the metaphor of baseball to illustrate the principles of integrity, showing us how to consistently hit home runs in both our personal and professional lives. Now, in this episode, we're going to examine the core principles Jeff lays out in the book, and we can see how these can help leaders and organisations foster that genuine culture of integrity.
Now, by the end of this conversation, I'll hope you'll walk off with actionable insights and wisdom that you can apply immediately, whether you're leading a team, managing a project, or simply striving to align your actions with your values. So if you're ready to transform your workplace and lead with real integrity and learn how to continually knock it out the park, let's play ball with Jeff. Welcome to the show, Jeff.
00:03:40 - Jeff Klubeck
Oh, man. Andy, thank you so much. I mean, I almost want to, like, go back and listen to you. That again. That was so wonderful. Thank you for having me. I'm really, really looking forward to our conversation.
00:03:51 - Andy Goram
Oh, me too, mate. Me too. This is, this is one of those conversations I look forward to because you're going to challenge my view of a dodgy word. As far as I'm concerned today, you're going to help me get a better appreciation, maybe cool my jets on why I have a problem with it quite so much. Before we get into all that, my friend, I've briefly introduced you. You could do a much better job of that. Tell us a little bit about you and your background.
00:04:16 - Jeff Klubeck
Yeah, well, first and foremost, I'm married with three kids, two dogs. I'm a lucky, lucky dude. I wake up every day and I figure out how I'm going to deserve my wife and kids, and I'm just a lucky guy. So that's the first thing that I tell anybody about me, is how lucky I am underneath my roof. And then beyond that, I'm an unretired professor of communication. So I taught communication courses for 20 years as an adjunct professor in the San Diego Community College district. But the integrity game got noticed by my alma mater, San Diego State, and they brought me out of retirement. And so I've taught organisational communication and public speaking the last year and a half at my alma mater, San Diego State. So that's another thing that's, you know, a pretty neat part of my identity is I love being in the classroom. I love empowering adult learners.
And then, yeah, I'm a five time author, self published the integrity game is the parable that introduces the ten point model. We'll discuss, but I also write some tips books. Get a clue. In 52, there's four of them that are out, and they're just 52 tips spread out over five categories. And I read those online every week. You mentioned I'm a sought after speaker and seasoned coach. I've been around the world, 13,14 countries that I've had assignments in whether I'm coaching or speaking or leading rooms or retreats or working with entrepreneurs or speakers, etcetera. So I don't take myself too seriously. I have a fast paced humour lace, kind of in your face communication style. Very jovial, very cheeky. And I believe in humour, right, as the Trojan horse to get some attention on some deeper concepts, right? Because you are back to the dodginess of the word integrity. You're ahead of the game, Andy, because you already are suspect. You're not just. You're not just. You know what I mean? Like, you're starting off in a much better place than most people, right? Because you're already aware. You're already. Hang on a second here. With this integrity thing, you see the dilemma that the word creates, but you're paying attention, right, as a. As a leader, okay? Most people, they don't pay any attention. They take it for granted that they have integrity and that everybody else sucks, right? So for most. For most people in the world, integrity is like parenting or driving, and that we all consider ourselves to be perfect, but everybody else sucks. So I want to cut through that and get us to look within on this integrity game thing.
The Power of Parables
00:06:31 - Andy Goram
And that is what I've been so looking forward to, my friend, because you have got a fantastic energy about you. You have used a word that I wanted to use straight off the bat. Really? Because you've used the word parable, and there are a litany of business books out there that I. Look, I love the idea of reading. I find it hard at times, right? And the parable thing is something we're beginning to see a bit more. Where did yours come from, my friend? What was. Oh, God, this sounds such, like a real generic podcast question, but where did it come from, buddy? Where was that parable born?
00:07:09 - Jeff Klubeck
Oh, yeah. Well, let me give you maybe a not so common answer. Everything is multi determined. We can't just look for one thing and think that we've got the answer. Everything that happens is multi determined. It's a combination, a collection of things, right? So where do I start? First of all, you know, in my own personal professional growth, in my own studies, as I was becoming a coach and getting to world class, right? You think about these great books, like, Who Moved My Cheese? And then the other that really landed on me was the E myth revisited by Michael Gerber. So the first half of the book was a Parable about Sarah, who made the best pies in town. And then everybody says, you should start your own pie shop. And so she does. And now she can't make pies anymore because her initials are in every other box on her chart. So I get chills when I read that or when I think back to the e myth revisited by Michael Gerber, because here I was starting to get my business off the ground, and it the idea, here's what we're getting at. I didn't feel so threatened right when I was reading about Sarah. But if somebody had come along to me and said,
“Hey, Jeff, have you, do you have a position description for that? And do you have a system for this? And do you have a process for that? And are you hanging onto it all yourself, or are you able to delegate? Are you strategic about your staffing? Do you know what key performance indicators, if somebody would ask me that, I would have shut down and told them, there's the door.”
The Trojan Horse of Accountability
But reading about Sarah, it was a more soft concept to me. It became a Trojan horse for me to pay attention to business shortcomings in my own practice that I may not have paid attention to otherwise, but I wasn't as threatened. And so what I'm trying to do with the integrity game is I want to make accountability non threatening. We haven't talked about another dodgy word, accountability. So if I went into a room, Andy and I, with 100 entrepreneurs, and I said, how many of you want an external accountability source? Starting now, nobody would raise their hand. But if I say, how many of you believe you have integrity? Everybody raises their hand. So the parable, you know, is very much like the concept, the word integrity. I can get people into the integrity conversation much easier than I can get them into the accountability conversation, and I can get them to read my business parable of 134 pages about a mentor and a mentee. And by the end of the book, the guy's not slinging hot dogs anymore, right. Because the mentor took him on a journey. Right.
Then I can get you to read my 150 page master's thesis with the two by four factorial design, with eight experimental conditions and 279 subjects to operationalize the variables of diffusion of ancient research, right. You know, right. Like, we got to get the message through, right? Thank you for laughing, but, you know, I can go academic. I can. I can bore you, but I'd rather stick. I'd rather land. I'd rather be memorable. I'd rather be fun. I'd rather be non threatening and jovial and silly and Trojan Horsey.
And then from the integrity game itself, the actual ten point model. So, like the parable, I was influenced by other parables, right? And when I developed the integrity game as a ten point model, so it just made sense to me. Like, let's throw an intro on, let's throw a conclusion on. And then I got a twelve chapter book right here because I got a ten point model. So it just, it just made sense to me that if we create some characters. And the other thing too, I'll tell you, this other piece is I wrote the book when I was mourning the loss of my parents in September, in September of 2020, Prevax Covid my parents were failing and I had to leave San Diego and go, had to chose to got to take care of them. And what's interesting is that I was delivering a keynote for the specialty advertising association of California. And when I gave them the list of topics, time management and performance. And performance, and I thought that to me, the list looked boring.
00:10:52 - Andy Goram
Yeah.
00:10:53 - Jeff Klubeck
So I threw the integrity game in there to like, kind of like make the list look a little sexier. And they said, hey, what's this integrity game thing? And I'm, oh, it's about accountability. But. And next thing they chose it. And so I developed the keynote around it. And then all of the stuff that I've learned about being your word and managing your commitments and setting expectations, all my thoughts and all my work with people over the years about integrity and playing the integrity game, it used to be, it used to be a dialogue inside the coaches training, right? So, Andy, if I'm coaching somebody and they commit to something in one session, and then they come back to the second session and they haven't done what they said they were going to do, what do we got? What do I do as the coach? Well, it's time to play the integrity game. So that's where it started, is just a three step dialogue to get people to own their behaviour, understand the consequences of their behaviour, and then decommit or recommit rather than keeping the open loops running.
Non-Threatening Accountability
So it was a very tactical conversation for a world class coaching relationship to deliver non threatening accountability. But there's so much concept and on personal professional growth behind it that by the time I delivered the keynote, I just created a ten point model. And then I was like, wow, this could be a book. And so the last thing I want to say about it is I started writing the book after I did the keynote, and it was during mourning the loss of my parents. So there's characters in the book, Andy, that have the qualities of my children. And the book is dedicated right up front to my wife. And I get emotional when I think about it, because I'm putting something professional into the world. But it's as much memoir for me as it is mentoring for the audience. It's as much like, how should I say, viable as it is vulnerable. And so now I've got this thing that, God forbid anything ever happened to me. My family knows that they live inside the integrity game, and I'm just integrating my heart, and what's really most important to me is my family. And then, of course, the opportunity I have to make a difference in the world.
00:12:51 - Andy Goram
That's great. I mean, in the intro, we talked about integrity actually meaning something, and you've just kind of, like, delivered on that, right? In spades. It means something, and that. And that's why we get emotional about it. That's why we care about these things. That's why we have an attachment to these things, because there's something more than the veneer of what it is. So I do want to ask you some questions about accountability, because I think what you said is really, really interesting about that, and we'll unpack as many of the sort of ten points as we can in the time that we have.
00:13:17 - Jeff Klubeck
Yeah.
The Mentor-Mentee Relationship
00:13:17 - Andy Goram
You talked about the mentor and mentee relationship in the book. It's kind of a baseball dad and the hot dog seller was the mentor mentee way of telling that story. Who were you speaking to when you were thinking of it that way?
00:13:32 - Jeff Klubeck
Yeah. Well, okay. There's a couple of answers to that.
00:13:36 - Andy Goram
Yeah.
00:13:36 - Jeff Klubeck
All right, so, first of all, you know, target audience would be, like, you know, small and micro business owners, entrepreneurs, solopreneurs, anybody that, like, for example, you know, like, my clients, people that would hire me to.
00:13:48 - Andy Goram
But, Jeff, I get that. I just meant in your head when you were writing that book.
00:13:54 - Jeff Klubeck
Okay.
00:13:55 - Andy Goram
Who were you talking to, man? Who were you… Because knowing you, I think, like, I'm kind of getting to know you, there's a lesson here. Was this something you were trying to tell your kids for the future? Was this you trying to put your mark on the world so people could kind of take some lessons? What was that voice in your head while you were going through that process?
00:14:15 – Jeff Klubeck
Yeah, man. To peel a couple of layers to get deep to the epicenter of it all. I mean, are you ready, Andy?
00:14:24 – Andy Goram
Yeah, of course, man.
00:14:25 – Jeff Klubeck
I was talking to myself.
00:14:26 - Andy Goram
Okay.
00:14:27 - Jeff Klubeck
Okay. Right. I mean, like, I want more integrity in my life.
00:14:31 - Andy Goram
Right.
00:14:32 - Jeff Klubeck
I want to be a better dad. I want to be a better father and husband and business owner and person. I want to take better care of myself. I want, I want, I want, I want. So I'm just inviting the world to play with me, you know, like, I'm. Yeah, right.
00:14:46 - Andy Goram
So, like, that's integrity right there.
00:14:48 - Jeff Klubeck
Yeah, yeah. And it's elusive. And so the idea is, though, that it's an inside job. Every job is an inside job. Somebody once told me that usually if there's anything profound at all about the work we're doing for the world, it's because it's the work we need for ourselves. And so, like, who are you talking to? And, you know, obviously in the book, I'm the season ticket holder that's there to see his son, who's a rookie, that made the team. Obviously, that person's based on me and what they do for a living. So in. I infused in this character Terry, right? All the stuff I do, I coach, I, you know, I help people with organisational development, staffing, and behavioural assessments and goal setting. And I. So all the things I do for a living are embedded in this character, right? So everybody's like, I remember when my brother said, hey, Terry, after he had read the book, he called me. He's like, hey, Terry. And I told him, I'm getting chills right now, goosebumps right now. I said, hey, don't, don't kid yourself, Dave. I told him, I said, dave, there's a little bit of Luke in all of us, isn't there? And so the truth is, I identify as much with the, you know, the underachieving hot dog vendor as I do with Terry because I've been there in my life, too. And so the truth of the matter is, I mean, it's kind of like it's just an exercise in therapy. And, you know, self, I was really talking to myself and just, you know, I believe that, you know, if I could help myself with this ten point model and get to where I am in my world, maybe other, other people can tap in as well.
The Link Between Integrity & Accountability
00:16:17 - Andy Goram
I love that, mate. Thank you for sharing that. Thank you for the honesty. I really, really appreciate that. And you just telling everybody, or just telling the audience here about everybody raising their hand and saying, yeah, I got integrity, and you keep referring to accountability.
00:16:32 - Jeff Klubeck
Yes.
00:16:33 - Andy Goram
And it sounds to me like your troubling word. If mine's integrity, yours is accountability. When you set out on this journey, what problem with accountability were you trying to sort of sort out? Were you trying to get under the skin of, first of all, you can't.
00:16:46 - Jeff Klubeck
Hold anybody accountable to anything without their permission. Okay, let's get that out of the way. Right. So if you're listening out there, I'm not really holding you accountable until then unless you give me your permission. And we can arrange that. Okay. But backing up a little bit. Thank you for understanding my sense of humour here. Most people, here it is. Andy, are you ready? And follow. I'm going to go a little fast here, if I can. So I'll ask the audience, how many of you believe you have integrity? It's a trick question. I'm going somewhere with this, so let's. How many of you believe you have integrity? Everybody raises their hand, and then I joke with them, and I say, okay, please keep your hand up and repeat after me. I do do solemnly swear. Swear not to shoot the messenger in 30 minutes. And they all laugh. They go, uh. And I get, and I have fun with it. I'm like, hang on a second. I want good ratings. I want good reviews. I want to be invited back to next year's keynote. I'm not trying to offend you, so let's make sure we're talking about the same thing. And now they lean in, and I get to, now I get, and you mentioned it in the intro. You said, doing the right thing. But I'll ask the audience, all right, what is it? Let's make sure we're talking about the same thing.
“Who can tell me, what's your understanding of integrity? What's the definition of integrity?” And I always get two answers. One of them you mentioned in the intro, which somebody will say, do the right thing when nobody's watching, or do the same thing when nobody's watching, as you would when somebody is watching. And then people nod in the audience. I'm like, oh, they took your answer. Okay, we'll come back to you. We'll give you another chance. Let's pin that on the board. A lot of people seem to agree with that. Right? Okay, what else? Anybody else have an understanding of what integrity is? And then somebody else say, are you ready, Andy? Be your word. Do what you say you're going to do. And you're nodding right, as most people will. In the audience, I'm like, okay, we got some agreement there. So we've got these two answers. Do what you say you're going to do and do the right thing when nobody's watching and people are anybody else. And so very rarely will I get any other understanding than that. And then, so there's some things I like about this, and there's some things that I don't like in terms of what I'm trying to do with the integrity game.
00:18:37 - Andy Goram
Yeah.
00:18:38 - Jeff Klubeck
Right. First and foremost, I want to widen and deepen our understanding. And here's the problem. Here's. So what I like about these two answers. Are you ready?
00:18:46 - Andy Goram
Yeah.
00:18:46 - Jeff Klubeck
Is that in both cases, do what you say you're going to do and do the right thing. In both cases, there is an integration. There is a coming together of two or more things with word and behaviour. It's word and behaviour. When we do what we said, we're integrating our word with our behaviour. Okay. And then we do the right thing. We're integrating behaviour with values, morals, or ethics. Right? So in both cases, there's an integration, a coming together. But nobody in my audiences has ever used the word integration.
00:19:21 - Andy Goram
Right.
00:19:21 - Jeff Klubeck
When I ask them, what is integrity? So the first thing that I want to slow down and make sure everybody understands, take a deep. I'll even ask the room, take a deep breath with me. Because most of us are sitting in judgment of others when we think about the word integrity. So when I say, how many of you believe you have integrity? Everybody raises their hand. So they judge, and we all judge ourselves to be perfect. But then when I say, well, what is it? Be your word and do the right thing. Everybody's got this intensity in their voice, where they've been, you know, they've been hurt by all the people in their lives without integrity. Right? So I'm trying to get to our focus on the judgmental vibration. We want to get rid of that, because as long as there's a judgmental vibration, all we're going to do is provoke ego defense, and now we can't have a conversation. Right? So I want to eliminate that. Like, hey, it's just together or not together. I didn't say good or bad, right or wrong, clean or dirty, civil, savage, saintly or demonic. I said it's together or not together. So let's get objective. Let's get value neutral. Let's eliminate the judgment. That's the first thing I want to do.
Intention & Behaviour
Second thing I like about these two answers. Andy, are you ready? Is that behaviour shows up in both integrations. Behaviour with word and behaviour with values or morals or ethics. So I get chills again when I get to tell my audience. So behaviour is the evidence of our integrity. It's not the mission statement, it's not the vision statement, it's not the list of five core values in the brochure. It's our behaviour. So most of the world is judging themselves by intent, but the rest of the world is judging our behaviour and vice versa. True. Okay, so, so, number one, if we can lengthen the fuse and say, hey, well, what did they intend? What do you think their intention was? I know what they did. We could all see what they did. But do you think that they were intending to, what do you think their intention was? When we react to this, can we judge the intention instead of the behaviour? Because anybody can clean up the behaviour, but what we want to get at is the intention.
Now, if you know that they had a malicious, evil intent, let's handle it. Okay, but everybody's trying to do their best, aren't they? Aren't we? Yeah. So. But most people judge themselves by. Well, I didn't mean to. Well, I was just trying to. Well, I was only. I thought you wanted me to. Well, I. And now we let ourselves off the hook, but we're. Boy, do we have our fingers out when they weren't their word or when they didn't do the right thing. So I like those two answers, because I get to shine a light on two things that most people are taking for granted. Number one, integration is value neutral. Together or not together. Value neutral. Get the judgment out of it. And if you're going to be judging at all, look within first at your own behaviour. Right? So that's intense messaging. So I package it in some trojan horse, a joviality and slapstick and dad jokes and whatever I can come up with to get somebody's attention on this other, you know, I want people to. I want to make it easy and fun to look within. Right.
So what I don't like about those two answers, Andy, is, and this goes back to accountability, right?
Somebody, most people think, oh, integrity is be your word. Do what you say you're going to do. But a world class coach wants to know why you said you were going to do that. So I don't want to just hold you accountable to being your word. I want to hold you accountable to why you said what you said. What's the. Where does, where does the words that you give and the expectations that yourself and the things that you commit to, where is that coming from? Because, Andy, I could have, like, if I told, like, one of my, my best mates, right, to, you know, use some of the terminology, like, oh, I'm being interviewed on this podcast. I'm going to, like, drink 18 beers before this interview and see how well I do. And then I drink 18 beers before the interview. I will have done what I said I was going to do, but could I claim integrity or the other way around. If I said I was going to sleep on the couch for 20 out of every 24 hours, I'm going to park my ass on the couch, right? And then I did it. I will have done what I said I was going to do. But can I claim integrity? We know the answer is no. The word with behaviour is good, but it's not enough. And most people just stop there in judgment of others. I want to go further and look within.
Now, the other thing, Andy, is that here in the United States, man, I don't want to apologize for the entire friggin’ country, but we can't even agree on what's up, down, left, right. We can't even agree on what's true or not true. We got major news corporations paying $780 million to avoid defamation lawsuits, and some of us can't even agree on who the president is. Depending on what media fire hydrant you're drinking from, you don't even agree on what the truth is, let alone right or wrong, good or bad, clean or dirty, etcetera. So, when we want to do the right thing, regardless of who's watching, what we're usually doing is we're projecting what we believe to be the right thing onto somebody else who may believe something else to be the right thing. Not when we're not walking in their shoes. Most leaders that you work with, that I work with, there's probably any given challenging scenario for a really, really challenged leader. This isn't like cut and dried, sky is blue type of scenario. There's a lot of moving parts and complexities and things on the line. Well, usually there's probably five, six, seven different success principles that need to be considered and evaluated on the way to the right decision in this particular moment. It's a moving target. Right. To be very simple about it. Sometimes time is money. Other times, patience is a virtue.
00:24:46 - Andy Goram
Yeah.
00:24:47 - Jeff Klubeck
Sometimes if you don't quit, you don't lose. Sometimes you better know when to cut your losses. So there's competing success principles. All of them are true in and of themselves in any given moment. But what are we focused on, and what does the context suggest? And can we just judge people by their intent and understand and have some empathy for people and the things that they're going through on their leadership journeys? My point is, is that we should never lie to our children unless it's the holiday time and we want to guilt them into good behaviour. And you understand. So if we really are honest about it, we're all. We're all out of integrity. Right. And it's a trick question, right? When I say how many of you have integrity? It's like binary, yes or no? Here's the truth of it. To let people off the hook, we all have some and we all need more, myself included.
Integration, Not Alignment
00:25:39 - Andy Goram
Well, I mean, that's a fab answer to all of it, and you've mentioned a number of things I think we should try and pick up on. I mean, the integration thing, I think, is really because you use the metaphor, I think, of the sneakers and lacing up the sneakers. Right. To pull together all of these ten points that we're talking about to talk about, or some of the ten points that we're going to talk about in your framework. And if I think about all those ten points, Jeff, are there any to you that sort of stick out as the most critical, or is that a daft question because they can just relate to so many different people? People could have different biases and everything. I mean, you start with purpose and meaning. Is that. Is that because you think it's the kind of, like, core fundamental of everything, or is there some other reason?
00:26:23 - Jeff Klubeck
Well, there's a couple of questions that maybe try to address them. First of all, for the joviality and for the humour. Are you ready, Andy? Andy asked me what my favourite ice cream is.
00:26:33 - Andy Goram
Oh, please. Jeff, will you tell the listeners what your favourite ice cream is?
00:26:36 - Jeff Klubeck
Yeah, whichever one I'm eating. Okay, so same with the integrity game. With my favourite point on the model is the one I'm working, that the one that I'm challenging myself to have answers for. So whether it's the first point, purpose, or any other point on the model, I'm always working with one so that I can integrate them all. So we learn them independently, but we want to see them as a whole. And that's why that visual is so strong. Use your imagination. Like you said, the laces, right? So imagine five holes on one side and five holes on the other side. And so the laces are not tying the shoe. We tie the laces. What the laces are doing is integrating the left side with the right side, like so. Here's the concept. Ready? A building, a bridge, or a tunnel will crumble under pressure tests without structural integrity. So here's coach Jeff arguing that so, too, will individuals, teams, and organisations. So how do we provide structural integrity for a high performer? How do we provide structural integrity for a high performance team? How do we provide structural integrity for the culture of human resources inside of an organisation? So that when pressure tests come along, whether Jeff got sick today. And that's the pressure test. Or whether so and so got recruited to another company, and that's the pressure test. Or whether the CEO got into a little trouble and there's a pr issue, or whether it's a pandemic or whether it's a supply chain or whatever, the team still does what it's built to do, made to do. So the simple metaphor is the shoe, right? The laces are giving the shoe structural integrity. They're integrating the left side with the right side, bringing them closer together so the shoe can do what it was made to do, which is stay on our foot, protect our foot. So the argument here is anything out of integrity invites everything else to be out of integrity, and so now the shoe. And I could come up with another analogy. Like, you know what? I'll ask you another question real quick. What's the most valuable part of a baseball? There's the cork and the twine and the leather.
00:28:32 - Andy Goram
I maybe go for the stitching, right? Because that holds the whole thing together. Without that word, bingo, you got nothing.
00:28:37 - Jeff Klubeck
Bingo. Bingo. That's it. It's useless without the stitching. So it's not the most valuable part. Right. The leather is the most expensive. That's. I mean, like, in dollars and cents, leather is the most expensive, but the most valuable is the stitching. What integrate. And so, in my model, the laces are actually our values, our morals, our ethics. In my game, love, the willingness to be vulnerable, and the love that I have for myself and the world and my family. That's my adhesive. That's what holds my ten points together. So, to me, love is the adhesive that gives me structural integrity. Now, the loops, I have a name for each of the loops, and you mentioned purpose. I don't know if it's my favourite because it's hard. I can tell you why. When I do all star interviews, by the way, I interview subject matter experts on each of the points on the model. This isn't be the third year in a row that I do a set of all star interviews.
00:29:31 - Andy Goram
Nice.
00:29:31 - Jeff Klubeck
And when we talk about purpose or gifts or potential or goals, those are the first four.
00:29:37 - Andy Goram
Yep.
00:29:37 - Jeff Klubeck
Purpose, gifts, potential, goals, first four points on the model. I ask, what's so important about this? What prevents people from having answers to these questions? And then what would you recommend? How do people determine purpose or find meaning in their life? Or how do people understand and declare and optimize and invest in their gifts and competitive advantages? How does a high performance team or a leadership team or an executive team or a C suite, how do they arrive at vision, mission and objective statements that their people can really rally behind? Right. And then how does that translate to what we need to get done in the next three months? The goal setting. Right. So does this make sense? So if I don't have questions to purpose. Right. Oh, man, it's tough. It's hard. I'm afraid to declare my purpose because now I. Right. The accountability of it. Right. Once you say what your purpose is, now everything that you're doing that doesn't integrate with purpose is waste of your time.
00:30:30 - Andy Goram
I would often use the word align, but I'm finding integrate feels tighter. Right. There feels more. Less of things stacked on each other and more of things coming together to create an entity.
00:30:43 - Jeff Klubeck
Yeah. Yeah. A stack of Jenga blocks are aligned, but they're highly fragile. Right. But integrated means that they're fastened. There's adhesive. There's something that, there's integration. Two things coming together. But then what keeps them together? Like, my wife and I are opposites. I'm a fast paced, variety oriented extrovert, super empathic, very emotional, first person in my family to cry when the emotional scene comes on the movies. Right. And then my wife is corporate spreadsheets and boom boom. Right. Analytical. And so opposites attract. But now what? Now we see the world differently and do things differently. So what keeps us together? It's our love, it's our values, it's our morals, it's our ethics. But that's the adhesive. That's not the game.
00:31:28 - Andy Goram
Yeah.
00:31:29 - Jeff Klubeck
The game is inny-outtie, boy meets girl, masculine, feminine, that's the game. But what keeps us together after the easy part of that game? Because smelling good to somebody and considering somebody attractive and getting together physically, that's the easiest thing in the world. Anybody could do that. But keeping a marriage together for three, four decades and raising kids, tolerating the challenges there better be some adhesive.
00:31:55 - Andy Goram
That's the game there.
00:31:56 - Jeff Klubeck
Yeah. That's the real game.
00:31:57 - Andy Goram
That's the game there. You've mentioned four of the ten. I just want to pick out one because I really. I really like it. The importance of recognising people's gifts.
00:32:09 - Jeff Klubeck
Yes.
Identifying Your Personal Gifts
00:32:10 - Andy Goram
Now, I was thinking about this before. I was going to get to sort of speaking. You started, I think, to try and even answer maybe even this question, is that. But when you're doing your coaching or when you're using the integrity game as a background, what do you say to someone who, whether they're very self effacing or don't like to sort of like come across as braggadocious or whatever it might be. How do you help someone who struggles to identify their own gifts?
00:32:40 - Jeff Klubeck
Yeah, well, first of all, I help somebody the way they need to be helped because not all clients are created equally.
00:32:45 - Andy Goram
Sure.
00:32:45 - Jeff Klubeck
So back to, back to… let's understand behavioural assessments, right? Somebody with my behavioural style, I'm going to help them emotionally, I'm going to appeal to emotion right away. Somebody with my wife's behavioural style, I'm going to appeal to facts and systems and details. So first thing first is I have to understand who I'm talking to and I have to speak into their listening. Okay? Now, more generally than that, it depends on where they're at, the range of curiosity that we have as a coach for people that, you know, have room to grow in this area of the model. First of all, what's your mindset around giving and receiving? So we have to talk about, first of all, scarcity or abundance. What does giving mean to you? What does receiving mean to you?
Like me, I struggled with this for many, many years. I grew up with all of my friends around me. They had more stuff than I did, you know what I mean? Like, my parents were together, they loved each other, but I was delivering papers and going door to door, you know, I was working when I was twelve years old and the whole deal, right? So the idea is I, for many, many, many years, maybe even still, I don't let people, I'm uncomfortable and say, hey, can I do this for you? Or, hey, let me help you with that. To me, it goes back to like, the scarcity mindset. I didn't have enough. So I posture, I don't need help. I don't need help to overcome subconsciously the scarcity of, you know, like how tough it was growing up, watching everybody have brand new clothes, brand new cars, you know, and everything. And I didn't, you know, people, whatever. But, so, mindset, scarcity, right?
Some people want to give, give, give, but they can't receive. Some people take, take, but they can't give. So where's the mindset, the vibrational, you know, starting point for a person on mindset around giving and receiving, and then we can move into what counts as gift. So sometimes we can have, that's another frame that I can get access to people on. What's God given? Right? What's man made? And when I say man made, I mean another human being giving me a gift, and then self generated. And so the prize is to integrate those, right? I have an example from my own life. Like, you know, my. I think God gifted me with communication skills, right? But then I was also man made. Gifted alone to stay in school when I was tight on money, or else I might have had to drop out. So the job that I had on campus, when I told my boss, hey, you got to look for a replacement because I don't have money for tuition. My parents don't have it. I don't have it. I'm going to drop out and go home and deliver pizzas. The next day, he took me to lunch with his boss, and he said, no, you're not. We're going to lend you money. You'll pay us back $100 a month. Don't drop out. First of all, we want you. And second of all, forget us. If you drop out now, the chances of getting back in are so low, and you would be wasting quite a future. So we got to do what we can. That's man made, right? And I remember the tough conversation with my mom that night. I'm like, hey, mom, can I borrow money from these guys that want to lend me money? And she was so sad that she couldn't do it. I said, hey, you're not. Your job isn't to be sad that you don't have the money. You should be proud that you're raising a kid that these guys want to invest in.
I do this, I get chills all over, right? It's a heavy story to tell without crying. And then, of course, now, all right, Jeff, you're God given. You've got your health. You have parents that love you, and you, you, you know, you've got a mind, and you've got a heart, and you're able bodied, and these guys lent you the money. Now what are you going to do for yourself? What's the self generated part of all of this? So I had God given, man made. Now it was up to me to prove these guys right and make sure that they got Roi on their investment and that I got Roi on the gift. So what am I doing for myself? Am I getting grades? Am I going to office hours? Am I taking notes? Am I showing up to class? Am I studying? Am I, you know, and I ended up dedicating my master's thesis to Doctor Richard Gerero and Bill Behrens, who lent me money to stay in school. So it's really…
00:36:20 - Andy Goram
That's big stuff.
00:36:21 - Jeff Klubeck
Yeah. It's an emotional conversation, but back to gifts. And then it's like, wow, you know, with great power comes great responsibility. The Spider man jingle. Yeah. So the idea is how many people in the world are suffocating their gifts, ignoring their gifts? They know they're gifted and they're terrified of the work it takes, the responsibility that comes with the enormity, the giving up of the lifestyle, the conveniences, the comfort zones, the peer group associations. Like, if I were to invest in my gifts, if I were to optimize my gifts, I might not be able to be a friend with that person anymore. It doesn't integrate to hang out with this person and optimize. So people are afraid of change. So it's a heavy area. Just one word, gifts. And look at all of that conversation. We can unpack all of those. Does it hurt here? Does it hurt here? Does it hurt here? All of those diagnostic points and doors I can knock on to get into the gifts conversation with my people.
Integrity Has To Be More Than Buzzwords
00:37:19 - Andy Goram
This is, to me, is exactly why the start of this show talked about integrity being dodgy when it's just seen as a nice little buzzword to stick on something because you got it. We ain't even scratched the surface of where we can go with this, with this stuff right there is. This is what I mean by depth. This is where you really start to understand something. We have scratched the surface of one of the ten. We've mentioned four of the ten in the whole framework. So, you know, anybody listening to this maybe now starts to, I don't know, empathize with the whole thing around. If you're going to use a word like integrity, whether it be personal values or organisational values, for crying out loud, do the work behind it. Really understand what it means and how it shows up. I want to flash up the remaining six, Jeff, so I don't think we've covered mission and vision in any real detail. Objectives, strategies, tactics, is resources. You mentioned commitment and word and behaviour previously. And then the learning, the growth, I guess, the winning, the accomplishments, the service stuff, there's a whole bunch of stuff. I mean, we have, that is your. Where have you seen, and I know it's really hard to generalize or bring out specifics, but have you, have you seen, like major impact with any one individual thing or is it always the integrated piece when you're, when you're working this stuff through with clients? Because different people are going to have different colors to play with. Right?
00:39:00 - Jeff Klubeck
Yeah, it's, it's, yeah, it's yes and both. Right. So it's, it's. Yes. The totality is the most powerful thing. It's hard. This whole integrity game thing is still an experiment. You know, I'm still like, it's a baby I'm raising, but it's back to the ice cream thing, right? Whichever point on the model you're focused on, that is the most important point. And then if you're struggling to find, like, because the idea is like, we can, we can talk about all ten points and I'll go go over it real quick. Purpose, gifts, potential goals, strategies, tactics, resources, then word and commitment, then taking action, then proactive learning, then accumulation of accomplishments, and finally service.
Okay, so those are the ten points on the model which become doors to knock on for personal professional growth content. Behind all of those labels, there's a whole land of personal professional growth content. As we talked about with gifts when we started to break that down. Right. But the idea is, if I'm struggling, if we just turn it around and say, what is your purpose? What are your gifts? What is your potential? We turn all ten points into questions. That's the integrity game. It's as easy to understand as it is difficult to play, because what I'm asking people to do is answer these ten questions, and you will struggle with one of the points on the model. Cool. Put a pin in it and go try to answer another point on the model. And now that you've made progress there, come back.
So if you don't know what your purpose is, get clear about what your gifts are, and then go revisit purpose. If you don't know what your potential is, get clear on your gifts and you might be able to imagine your vision, mission, objectives. If you don't know what your goals are, get clear on what your annual objectives are and break those down into quarterly goals. So any point on the model that you start to begin to have answers to, it empowers and integrates, right? So the stages of the game are, understand the questions, answer the questions, make sure your answers integrate. Rather than disintegrate. They empower rather than disempower. They strengthen rather than dilute each other. And then are you ready? This is my favourite part. Share your answers with a world class coach so that we can tighten the bolts and really attach rather than just the line.
We can attach our answers and strengthen and retrofit and foundation. And now we can get you back out into your life or business with the resilience that anything comes along. If it doesn't integrate, it's an empowered no. Anything comes along that integrates, it's an empowered yes. And now you're standing upright and nothing could blow you over because you know what you're doing every second of the day. And then if you have these ten answers, ten sets of answers to these ten questions, now this becomes your personal professional growth journal. Just update it once a year. So we run the, we run the 90 day challenge where for 90 days, once a week we're going to deal with each one point, you know, so there's an overview week, the ten weeks for the points on the model and then a concluding week. So for about twelve weeks we're going to break it down.
And so that's what the 90 day challenge, the Evergreen Group Coaching Program. Two years ago we ran it for the first time. Last year I did another set of interviews, all star sessions, I call them. So now anybody wants to get into the group coaching program, there's going to be like 24 recordings that go deeper on all of the ten points on the model, plus two sets of overview videos, two sets of conclusion videos. And I'm going to do a brand new set of interviews with brand new subject matter experts this coming fall. So there'll be three sets of archives and really help people get in and answer these questions for themselves. The workbook, the Facebook group, the archives, the, right, the, on and on. So we want, we want to, you know, I have a vision where there's a thousand or more people in the 90 day challenge. And every year after the summer is over, hey, September 1, week of September, summer's over. Kids are back in school. Time to sprint to the finish line. Time to, we've still got time to make this year the best year. And now's the time to be planning next year. We don't want to wait till next year to plan next year. We plan it now. Let's play the integrity game. Let's retrofit ourselves.
Sticky Note Wisdom
00:42:52 - Andy Goram
I love it. Yeah. I will put links to all that in the show notes for sure, because I think this is what's been fascinating for me today, is to just hear the very kind of high level stuff that we've managed to sort of have a look at today on this topic and get sort of a deeper understanding into why the depth behind integrity. I think, as you have beautifully illustrated today, Jeff, is so important. There must be people listening to this now, desperate to kind of get a hold of a copy of the book and, and have a look through it.
But I've reached a point in the show now, right, that I call Sticky Notes, Jeff, and this is where I put you on the spot a little bit, mate. In a lazy attempt to summarize that the, the key takeouts from today's show. I'm asking you to leave behind three pearls of wisdom for the listeners, right. That you could just fit on three little sticky notes that they could attach to their screen and see. And when it comes to sort of playing the integrity game, what three little sticky notes would you leave behind for the audience?
00:43:51 - Jeff Klubeck
Well, the first sticky note is like, why play alone when we could play together? And when we play, we win, right? Just like, let's just like three cheers for playfulness. That's one. Number two is we talked about it earlier is every job is an inside job. Look within first and always, especially before we rush to judge others. That's important. And then I think finally, perhaps you've heard it said, Andy, and maybe if so, can you finish my sentence that if you're not growing, you are dying. That's right. Right. And so what I'm here to say is that if we are not integrating, we just might be disintegrating. Let's play the game.
00:44:42 - Andy Goram
Love that, mate. If people want to find out a little bit more about you and the stuff you've talked about today, where can they find you, buddy?
00:44:51 - Jeff Klubeck
Yeah, well, we're building the integrity game website. So integritygame.com, and then I'm putting this in there for you in the chat and you can share it. But if people want to go right to the 90 day challenge and learn more about that, it's integritygamegame.com. join. Of course, beyond that, LinkedIn. Connect with me on LinkedIn. That's a really, really valuable platform. So I'm easy to find. Jeff Klubeck, LinkedIn, Facebook and Instagram and all of that stuff. But for your listeners, if anybody wants to send an email to info, then we'll give any of your listeners a free PDF copy of the integrity game. Of course, I know they're all rushing out to Amazon right now to buy it, but if anybody wants a free PDF, I'm more than happy to send that in exchange for the email address. Right. It's very, very transparent exchange of value. We'll give you something for free. Give us your email address. That's the game. That's the game.
Podcast Close
00:45:45 - Andy Goram
Beautiful stuff, mate. Well, look, it's been an absolute pleasure to have you on. Thank you so much for your time and your generosity and your honesty and your integrity today, my friend. Really appreciate it.
00:45:55 - Jeff Klubeck
Well, I've loved it and I love you, Andy. You're a fantastic host. And if you ever want to have me back to discuss anything, I'd be thrilled. I really enjoy the way you do your jam.
00:46:04 - Andy Goram
Bless you. I'll hold you to that. You take care, my friend. All right?
00:46:07 - Jeff Klubeck
Thank you, Andy.
00:46:08 - Andy Goram
Okay, everyone, that was Jeff Klubeck. And if you'd like to find out a bit more about him or any of the things we've talked about today, please check out the show notes.
So that concludes today's episode. I hope you've enjoyed it, found it interesting, and heard something maybe that will help you become a stickier, more successful business from the inside going forward. If you have, please, like, comment and subscribe. It really helps. I'm Andy Goram, and you've been listening to the sticky from the Inside podcast. Until next time, thanks for listening.
Andy Goram is the owner of Bizjuicer, an employee engagement and workplace culture consultancy that's on a mission to help people have more fulfilling work lives. He's also the host of the Sticky From The Inside Podcast, which talks to experts on these topics from around the world.
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