Are you grappling with ways to infuse your organisation's values, or mission statements with a sense of purpose and connection? Are they just falling flat and remain no more than a list of words that the Execs think are important, but no-one else does? Well you aren't alone. A multitude of businesses struggle to impart any sense of meaning from these organisation artefacts to their teams. However, during a recent, enlightening and entertaining conversation I had with Sam McNeill, a music expert from Song Division, he shared some insights that I think could truly revolutionise the way we approach employee engagement.
We talked about the profound impact music has in fostering emotional connections and unity within teams. Sam emphasised the simple truth that life is better with music, and I couldn't agree more. The universal language of music possesses an incredible ability to transcend barriers and awaken powerful emotions, making it a compelling tool for building a cohesive workplace culture and adding real meaning to things like corporate values and mission statements. Because when individuals feel deeply connected to the organisation and its values, they become its greatest advocates, driving engagement, retention, productivity and a positive, enabling culture.
Below is a full, automated transcript of our conversation, where you can uncover all the insights that Sam shared, or you can just listen to the episode using the player below.
Podcast Transcript
00:00:10 - Andy Goram
Hello, and welcome to Sticky from the Inside, the employee engagement podcast that looks at how to build stickier competition, smashing consistently successful organizations from the inside out. I'm your host, Andy Goram, and I'm on a mission to help more businesses turn the lights on behind the eyes of their employees, light the fires within them, and create tons more success for everyone. This podcast is for all those who believe that's something worth going after and would like a little help and guidance in achieving that.
Each episode, we dive into the topics that can help create what I call stickier businesses, the sort of businesses where people thrive and love to work and where more customers stay with you and recommend you to others because they love what you do and why you do it. So if you want to take the tricky out of being sticky, listen on.
The Power of Music In Employee Engagement
Okay then. Today we are turning up the volume on a topic that we've never covered before on this show, and that is the role that music plays in creating belonging and engagement in organizations.
Now, I could already hear some of you saying, what on earth are you on about? Now? Stay with me here.
Picture this. You're at a concert. The light's dim, the crowd hushes, and the first note of your favorite song fills the air. Instantly, you feel connected not just to the music, but to everyone around you sharing that Same moment. That's the power of music. It transcends language, breaks down barriers, and connects us on an emotional level.
Now, what about this? What if we approached employee engagement and workplace culture the Same way we approach music? What if, instead of dry presentations, generic sets of value statements, and expecting everyone in the organization to be just as excited or as drawn to the words as the exec team who put them together are, we use the universal of language of song to create real emotional connections with our teams? How cool would that be?
Today we're exploring this idea with a very special guest who's actually doing this right now with organizations all over the world. I'm delighted to have Sam McNeill from Song Division with me today to show us how to pump up the connection, belief, and meaning behind such things with songs written by the employees themselves. Think about it. How often do corporate values feel like a list of meaningless, forgettable words on a wall, a lanyard, a screensaver, or, God forbid, a mouse mat? What if those words could be brought to life through a melody that resonates with every individual in the company? What if, instead of another team building exercise, your next company meeting ended with everyone singing a song they'd helped create? Feeling more united inspired perhaps than ever before. Not convinced?
Well, we'll dive into the science and psychology behind why music is such a powerful tool for engagement. We'll explore the challenges and triumphs of turning skeptics into believers and hear some incredible stories, I'm sure, from around the globe on the impact that this approach has had. So get ready to rethink employee engagement and organizational culture in a way that's anything but ordinary. Because today we're not just talking about values, we're singing about them.
Welcome to the show, Sam.
00:03:59 - Sam McNeill
Thank you. What an intro. That was brilliant. I love it. I don't think we need to do it. I think you've nailed it.
00:04:06 - Andy Goram
Not at all, my friend. Not at all. This is a conversation I, since we first met, it seems ages ago now, and this is one of those conversations that I've been really, really excited about because it's. It's so different and I think for some people, so challenging, and yet we've got to do something in this world of engagement and culture that moves the dial. And I genuinely think this is something so interesting. I am. I've used the word pumped too many times in this intro already, but I'm pumped to understand more, my friend.
00:04:37 - Sam McNeill
I'm really pumped. I still get as excited about it as the first event I did in 2008. I just. I love it as a musician myself. I just get a huge kick out of what we do. So I'm as equally as excited. So thanks for having me.
00:04:53 - Andy Goram
Well, great to have you, my friend. Absolutely great to have you. Sam. Before we sort of get into the topic at large, just do me a favour, mate. Can you just give us a bit of an introduction to you, your background, all that kind of stuff?
Introduction to Sam McNeill & Song Division
00:05:05 - Sam McNeill
Yeah, definitely. So I'm from Sydney, Australia originally. I started singing very young age, when I was about six years old. Started singing and getting, you know, one on one training, vocal training, and then I was at a school called St. Andrews in, in Sydney, which is a very famous choir school, St. Andrews Cathedral School. Had a scholarship there through school, actually. Then spent five years singing in the opera Australia chorus and.
00:05:34 - Andy Goram
Wow.
00:05:35 - Sam McNeill
And got a degree in classical voice in from the Sydney Conservatorium of Music, at which point I basically haven't done any classical music since. But yeah, around that time started working with song division, where the owner of the song division saw me play at a gig playing with my original band and needed some extra musicians for a big job with Microsoft that we were delivering in Sydney, which I went along and helped out on. And like everyone else was like, this sounds like it could go terribly wrong. Or I was one of the skeptics and I was a musician and it wasn't. It was just unbelievable. And I sort of said to Andy, the owner, how do I get more involved in the company? I love it. I'd love to do anything. So over the next few years, took on a sales role and was sort of selling what we do and doing the odd bit of hosting and facilitating. But at this point, I'm still early twenties and a lot of pharmaceutical CEO's probably aren't interested in doing what I tell them to do. So I was sort of worked my way up the ranks and then first massive job I hosted was for Richard Branson, which was for Virgin, which is on my LinkedIn profile, where we got 1500 Virgin Australia staff to write a song about what they love about working for Virgin. And then he came in on a helicopter and we sort of surprised him and performed the song for him and sort of, the rest is history. And then 2016, I moved to England to set up a UK office in January. So coming up to nine years, actually. Gosh, that's scary.
00:07:07 - Andy Goram
Wow. I mean, that's some journey, my friend.
00:07:09 - Sam McNeill
Yeah.
00:07:10 - Andy Goram
Nowhere near your kind of level, but I trained as a chorister as a kid. Right. And that foundation, that classical foundation, I guess, is that's a solid platform for performing.
00:07:20 - Sam McNeill
Hundred percent. I learned everything. Shout out to my choir master, Michael Deasy, who taught me everything from sight reading to holding your own harmonies, breathing technique, how to understand key signatures and time signatures. And being in a choir, that it is that ultimate sort of sense of unity when it's, you know, four, five, six part harmonies, it's, you know, and then throwing that, doing it in a cathedral, not that I was particularly religious, but just that whole. That, that power behind it all with the big organ. Yeah, pretty. I mean, I got goosebumps now.
00:07:56 - Andy Goram
I'm with you, mate. When you sing in a cathedral, that when all those harmonies come together and the sound, that a cathedral kind of resonates. Oh, that's some eerie stuff.
00:08:07 - Sam McNeill
Yeah, we, um. I did two, two quiet tours to England in 95 and 98. And so I've sung it all, all the big hits. I've done St. Paul's, Westminster, St. Albans, Canterbury, York, Salisbury. I've got. We've got to sing at all of them and they're all equally stunning. Beautiful acoustically and obviously architecturally. So, yeah, I love that time in my life.
00:08:28 - Andy Goram
Oh, it's amazing. I got to sing at Westminster Abbey for a select choir for the old Queen Mother.
00:08:34 - Sam McNeill
Wow.
00:08:35 - Andy Goram
Yeah, yeah. In fact, actually, the Brits, or some of the Brits on this show might remember that the night she swallowed a fishbone was kind of like a famous night. That was the night I was in the. Think it was because of me, right. I kind of hope it wasn't again.
00:08:50 - Sam McNeill
I know we'll go into it, but just those music and memories, it's just incredibly special times.
00:08:54 - Andy Goram
I bet you we absolutely will drill into that memory pit because I think that's a big thing. So look, with Song Division itself, Sam, what was it they were trying to do? Because who wakes up one day and goes, oh, do you know what? Let's wander in some corporate and get people to write songs.
00:09:11 - Sam McNeill
Yeah.
The Genus Of Song Division
00:09:12 - Andy Goram
What was the genus of everything?
00:09:13 - Sam McNeill
That's a great question. So going back before my time, Song Division B.S. Before Sam. So Andy Goram again, still a director, founder, absolute legend, Fearless leader. He, uh, was signed to a band in London. Gotta get this story right. Sorry. Signed to a label in London, Alberts, who owned ABCDC's catalogue and looked after them. Um. I can't. Don't even know exactly what happened. Didn't happen like most bands something, it all fell apart and they ended up leaving. And he moved back to Australia and then was actually working at IBM, being put through an MBA there, and was obviously a. Still doing some music and songwriting and composing for ads and things like that, but also was privy to some pretty horrible team building, as far as I'm aware, which, you know, corporate team building, scavenger hunts, amazing races, you know, untying big balls of wool. I don't know what you do.
00:10:13 - Andy Goram
You're chucking a couple of blindfolds. You've got it all done.
00:10:15 - Sam McNeill
Exactly, exactly. And he was asked to go to an indigenous, indigenous music festival in Australia, in Alice Springs, where they were going to write songs with indigenous kids to empower them about their story and about their life, their day to day life. So he went and did that at a festival. Basically what happened was he told a friend about it and his friend had a, ran a telecommunications company, like a small telecom team of about, I think about 20 people. And he said, could you do that with my team in a studio? And Andy said, well, yeah, you know, I could. We could, I could order. We could order some beers, we get some pizza. We could just go in and see what happens.
00:10:57 - Andy Goram
Yeah.
00:10:57 - Sam McNeill
And, and he. And Andy brought in some musicians and that was that. And then apparently it was just went, you know, incredibly well. And then I think, not the virgin event. I did, but I know virgin or Vodafone was then the next one. And then he left IBM, he quit, and he started Song Division.
00:11:12 - Andy Goram
So amazing.
00:11:13 - Sam McNeill
It was all out of that anti, you know, team. Team bonding and team building. Gets such a bad rap, doesn't it?
00:11:20 - Andy Goram
Yeah, sometimes unfairly. Right?
00:11:22 - Sam McNeill
Sometimes fairly.
The Science & Psychology Of Music & Engagement
00:11:23 - Andy Goram
Yeah. Sometimes people are just going through the motions, right. And there's really no connection to what's actually going on. And I think the word connection is something we'll keep cropping up today, because I think that's what's so interesting about what you guys are doing. I did mention in the intro, which I think is a good thing, to maybe cover off something about science and psychology of music and why this works with team engagement and meaning and that stuff. From your perspective, Sam, why does music work in this area?
00:11:51 - Sam McNeill
Well, we've always known that it works, but it only would have been in the last, I'd say, five years or so, that we've personally invested quite heavily into the research behind the science of music and what it does to the brain individually and then what it does for groups and communities. So without going, like, too far into it, there's a few things that are happening when we sing as a group or perform as a group, or when we go to a concert and watch music as a group or individually. Actually, we're releasing oxytocin in our brains. So that's the first thing, which is, you know, an incredible chemical that activates the prefrontal cortex without getting too far into it. The prefrontal cortex is where all the fun stuff happens in life. That's where we're trying to creatively problem solve. That's where we're thinking outside the box, coming up with new ideas and solutions, creating in general, just creating. And all that great stuff happens in the prefrontal cortex, anything that doesn't require sort of thinking. So forget about tying your shoelace, breathing, putting 1ft in front of the other. That's all the caveman brain, the prefrontal cortex, is where we're trying to do something that we don't do every day.
So there's that. And the quickest way to activate the prefrontal cortex, one of the quickest ways, is through music. Then there's just the idea that we know that music helps bond and unite people. So when we, again, when we go to a concert, when we sing in a choir or a musical, or even when we share the gift of music with someone, we're actually creating a unique connection with that person, which is really cool. And that ties into memory as well. So that's the third sort of point, is when we associate something to a memory, or we use music to associate to a memory, that memory becomes incredibly strong. The best example is that we learn the Alphabet to a melody when we're two years old. I don't think anyone could remember the Alphabet if it was just a b, c, d, e, f, g, h, I, j. So there's that. And then, I'm sure the Same with you. I couldn't tell you what I had for lunch. Yes. You know, two days ago. But I can. I can sing you word for word a song that, you know, my. I might have had with my first. Me and my first girlfriend's. Our song when we were 15 years old, or that first concert I went to. That's a big one. We do, as a bit of an energizer at our events, is ask the group to share their first ever musical experience, just as a bit of an icebreaker, because most people can answer that question or have a great answer. And I. The. The. The other thing is, we're evoking that memory when we talk about it. So all of a sudden, we go around the circle and everyone has their answers. And so I was. Mine was Billy Joel and Elton John at the Sydney Cricket ground. 19.
Sharing Early Music Experiences
00:14:45 - Andy Goram
Wow. Not a bad start, mate.
00:14:47 - Sam McNeill
Not a bad start. Yeah, it was good. I don't know. What was yours?
00:14:50 - Andy Goram
My best experience, I think, would have been Pulp and the Different Class tour at the NEC. I mean, man, when they came on, they came on to I spy, which is great track from that album. But the floor, it was the first perspective I'd really seen of the floor, moving, of people just this bouncing. It was just unbelievable. And I'm getting goosebumps out.
00:15:11 - Sam McNeill
Right.
00:15:12 - Andy Goram
That connection to that concert was just brilliant.
00:15:15 - Sam McNeill
Yeah. So all of a sudden, you ask that question, the room starts, comes alive, everyone's smiling. The oxytocin, you can almost smell it in the room because everyone's got a great answer. Someone always says, new kids on the block, no matter what happens. Someone's first concert was new kids on the block. And it's just a great question. And that's not even listening to music. That's talking about music.
00:15:36 - Andy Goram
Yeah.
00:15:37 - Sam McNeill
Like, that's unbelievable to me. So, yeah, they're the main. The main touch points of why it works so well. And then we can go into a little bit behind the process, but when you also. When you're creating original music, we don't change lyrics to famous songs or anything like that. So once you're creating something from scratch, no matter how good or bad it is, subjectively, you still created it. And there's a sense of pride and ownership over that, that people really do feel at the end of the experience. But we're probably jumping ahead there. But.
Turning Corporate Values Into A Song
00:16:06 - Andy Goram
Well, no, let me. Let's. I mean, there's so much to talk about and so little time, so let's just crack on. I mean, let's just get into the meat of it, right? How on earth do you. Do you turn corporate values into a song? So do us a favour. Give us a precis or an overview of that process. What happens?
00:16:25 - Sam McNeill
Okay, so the first thing is sense of trepidation. So... and we did a great event last week, lovely company. And I said that normally we do a lot of big finance and pharmaceuticals, so I have to be very careful. But these guys were super cool and they're. I'm going to give them a shout out. They're called Miniclip Game, gaming apps and stuff. And this was C top CEO. Seven people, VIP studio experience, what we call it, writing a song in a famous recording studio. And that none of them had any idea. The p.a., she organized it all. And so they come in, we're jamming as they walk into the studio. We're on stage, we're rocking out, and the guys are just coming and take a seat. First thing is, everyone finds the seat as far away as possible, no matter what. I had seven seats in a little semi circle, and they're looking for other seats. It was so fun. It's all right. So, anyway, the first thing I personally always do is introduce myself and the musicians.
The one thing we haven't talked about yet is we're very aware that what we do sounds like a bad episode of The Office. So one of our other unique sort of selling points, I guess you would call it, which is one of my favourite parts of the job, is we use session musicians. A session musician is someone who plays tours and records full time with incredibly famous artists. So we had two of our number one guys, Luke Higgins, who plays for everyone from Kylie Minogue to James Arthur to Robbie Williams, and a guy called who's. He's a guitarist, and Barbara McCarthy, who's a keys player who's currently just on tour with Rita Ora and plays with Jennifer Hudson and a bunch of musicians. So we introduced them and I actually. I have photos up of them playing Glastonbury and with. With these big stars. So, people, it's important to me that people know that these guys aren't facilitators that play a bit of guitar. These are.... you're going to write a song with the people who write songs for big stars.
Once we do that, then we talk about what we're going to do today. So we're going to work with you and we're going to write a song or a bunch of original songs, depending on what the program is. And that is generally met with a, like, a deathly silence, which is. That's in the UK. Anyway, we have offices in the US that I've done a few events over there, and they just go for. They love it from the get go. They're just like, yeah, let's do this. The UK, the Australia, and I'd probably say the Asia, the Singapore office, that there's a little bit more warming up. But I just. I'm very good with the, like, elephant in the room, kind of. Let's just firstly, here's what we're not going to do today. We're not going to force anyone to sing on their own. We're not going to embarrass anyone. No one has to do anything they don't want to do. We're here to help. We got these amazing musicians. It's about the collaborative songwriting process, not the performance. We will perform the song at the end. If you don't want to sing the song at the end, you don't want, it's fine. There's no pressure. That never happens, because, like I said, by the time we've done this process, people are a bit obsessed with the song that they wrote. They're very proud of it, which is beautiful moment as well.
And then what we do need is a seed, you know, like the idea of a song. You know, songwriters talk about a song being a seed. You need something for it to grow from. You need something. Someone's got to bring an idea to the table. So we will ask, does anyone in the audience know how to play two chords on any instrument they see on the stage? Piano, guitar, bass, whatever. Whatever it might be. That's so rare that there's not one person. I mean, we had a group of seven last week, and there was a guy who played great piano, so he jumped up. So we just say, yeah, give us some chords, what works for you kind of thing, and they'll start playing. And if they're great at piano, great. If they're all guitar, if they're not great, it's almost even more powerful because our guys listen to the chord progression and start rocking in and just join in and start jamming with them. And people are just like,
"Whoa, it's Andy. It's Andy from Accounts!"
You know, no one knew that you played guitar. So that's the first sort of moment of the session where people go, oh, wow, this is going to be cool. And then it's all downhill from there in a good way. It's all, okay. Got our chords. We let them choose the style. Our guys can play any style. So we'll take those chords and we'll show them a reggae version, rock, funk, disco, punk, whatever they want to do. And they'll. They get to vote on the style of the song. And then we just basically get into lyric writing. So this one was really nice because they wanted it to be about their values last week. And one of the things that's powerful for what we do is we. Not everyone at the company gets a say in your values up. Yeah, I'd imagine. But what they can do is tell you what they mean. Those values mean to them in their own words. That's what we focus on. Give me an example of excellence in everything we do. That's a song division. Value, excellence in everything we do. So give me an example of that. Or what does being, you know, authenticity is a pretty common value. So what does being authentic mean day to day? So we'll run a series of questions that, that are getting them to communicate in their own words how they relate to that value, because it's also a feedback tool.
00:21:30 - Andy Goram
Yeah.
00:21:30 - Sam McNeill
So, so you've got, you know, we'll do 400 people, big pharmaceutical event sales kickoff. And we want to see CEO's or the bosses to hear that that employee totally sees that value in a different way to what they thought or potentially, you know, doesn't align with that value.
A Lack Of Connection & Meaning
00:21:46 - Andy Goram
I think this is what is so powerful about what you do, because this lack of connection, understanding, meaning, interpretation, relevance is one of the things. The big hurdles that companies trying to kind of inject or get values going within a business always end up stumbling over because they look great on a piece of paper. But then how do they translate to me? And the minute one person in the organization can say, no, I don't, that doesn't reply, I don't do that bit. Everything falls apart at that point. So I think what you're doing, attaching real personal meaning to it, that is a fundamental bit of transferring ownership and meaning to something like corporate values.
00:22:26 - Sam McNeill
Exactly.
00:22:27 - Andy Goram
Exactly.
00:22:27 - Sam McNeill
I loved your comment about, yeah, they paint them up on the wall. Or they're on a mouse pad or. I mean, one of our biggest goals for organizations is like. I mean, most people can't, don't know the values of their company or might know one out of five of them. So, you know, our guarantee sometimes we say is, you know, that not only will they know them, we'll be able to tell you the values in the next six months. They'll be able to sing you their values, because, again, that music and memory, it's. It's incredibly powerful. So, you know, that that's. That's our job, is to. Is to get them not just remembering them, but for me, it's really important that they somehow resonate with them in their own way. There's got to be a connection to. To that value other than just knowing it.
00:23:11 - Andy Goram
That is the game of values.
00:23:12 - Sam McNeill
That's the game.
Dealing With Cynics & Sceptics
00:23:13 - Andy Goram
That's the game of values in total. Do me a favour, because I'm sitting here and I'm thinking about some of the audience, and I'm sure, I mean, you've already talked about, you're not making people feel embarrassed or anything, but do you get the other end of the scale as well in that people turn up and go, oh, really? And, like, proper cynical and sceptical and what happens? And how do you deal with that?
00:23:34 - Sam McNeill
Yeah. So, again, it's about giving. Giving them ownership. So there's. There seems to be, whether it's the guitarist on stage who comes up, or it's the more introverted person who. Who can't help but, like that. That line doesn't rhyme exactly right with the other line that you've written. They can't help us, or that's spelled incorrectly, or that value. That's not actually what it means. There's just this. It's. I can't even explain it, but somehow everyone's sucked in.
00:24:02 - Andy Goram
Yeah.
00:24:03 - Sam McNeill
And everyone, even the biggest. They're my favourite testimonials are those, you know, that people will just say, I thought that was going to be absolutely rubbish. And that was the coolest thing I've ever done. And that's a very common testimonial for me. We don't change lyrics to famous songs because that really is a recipe for disaster. I did it once. I did it once in. A client insisted on wanting. Years ago in Australia, I wanted to change the lyrics to 500 miles and not a fun experience for them or for me, you know, and then there's also licensing issues and stuff like that, but it's more that you don't. That song exists in your memory already, you know, for another reason. This is something that we want to exist in your memory as a standalone experience. So that's a big part of it, that sense of ownership. It'd be like doing paint by numbers.
00:24:54 - Andy Goram
Yeah.
00:24:55 - Sam McNeill
Like, okay, looks great. But I know I didn't create it, and. And there wasn't a lot of effort in struggle involved, whereas I did a painting class in lockdown. I'm a terrible artist, like, painting artists, and I still was really proud of what I made. I painted this, you know, like, flower, and I. It's. It's horrible, but I really. I was super proud of what I created. There was a struggle there. There was a. There was a.
00:25:20 - Andy Goram
And you've given something of yourself, haven't you? I mean, I think this is the thing. You've given something of yourself. There's a real connection to it. I've used the word too much already. It means something to you as opposed to crowbarring some words into somebody else's melody.
Creating A Feeling Of Purpose & Meaning
00:25:36 - Sam McNeill
Yeah, exactly. I think it's that sense of purpose and meaning. Yeah. Last week was really nice, actually. We done the song. We wrote two songs. It was called a song slam. We do a battle of the band. So they had to write two small groups, and then they come and perform them for each other. And then they went off to lunch, and then this girl, she was only female in the group, and she came back in as they were leaving and was like, no, I just don't think that chorus is quite right yet. I just think we've missed it. And they've all gone to lunch. She's back in the studio working on the song with us. We're like, wow, okay. I just. I love that. Like, she really, that really, that was really annoying her, that something wasn't quite right about the chorus, so she came back in. It was just really nice moments. So, yeah, people, they get attached, and also, it's something that you don't do every day, and, like, I feel very lucky. One of my favorite parts of the job is a making people happy and seeing them go through the journey, but also getting to play with these musicians that we use. I would never be on stage with these guys, so that's really cool, too. So I think people get a kick out of that.
00:26:38 - Andy Goram
I'm sure they do. I mean, just listening to sort of how you speak, I mean, obviously your passion and excitement really, really comes through, Sam. And I can imagine for some people, it can be quite an intimidating thought or experience. So there's a real kind of like, journey of dealing with some vulnerability, I imagine, for quite a few of your. Of your clients. What. What sort of journey do you see in that? What. What happens?
00:27:04 - Sam McNeill
It's. It's almost like a bit of a magic trick and that we don't do it on purpose, but we just get to that point where the song's about to be performed and we just don't really drill into it too much. I'll make a big deal of it. It's like, okay, written the lyrics. We've gone through the lyric writing process. We've arranged it. Everyone's super happy with it. Everyone's poems are in there. And then our band will perform at once, and we'll be figuring out the melody on the spot. Like, it's not a magic trick, it's not a setup.
So they're watching a band figure this song out live and they find that really impressive. And then often, you know, we'll be on a pretty tight schedule, so we'll be like, right, got it. Good. Everyone up on your feet. Let's go. And we just sort of brush over the idea that they're going to have to do it, and everyone's so like, oh, okay. And up they get and the band starts. The only way I can explain it, if you haven't seen it, is it's actually more like you're at an oasis concert and you're singing along. If you can sing or you're a great singer, that we have extra mics, and often we'll. We'll find someone in the group who's an amazing singer and they will come up, but otherwise it's just everyone up on their feet and it's a big old sing along. So we're just very conscious of not forcing anyone to do anything they don't want to do, but it just. It doesn't happen. And the other thing is, often we'll write the songs in the day, and then we'll be part of the entertainment that night. So we're the band at their conference, so they've then had dinner, they've had a couple of drinks, and then when we perform the song, trying to get can't. You can't get people off the stage is the issue. So, yeah, there's a few ways we can do it, but I think it's just the pace at which it moves. Okay, song's done. Let's go. Everyone up on your feet. And then they're in.
It Doesn't Take As Long As You Think
00:28:40 - Andy Goram
I think that's a really interesting thing as well, because the uninitiated and I will probably put myself in there as having never written a song in my life. We, you know, we would be sitting here going, oh, it's. It's months of agony trying to get a song out and. But you're talking about a very short period of time in which to put this stuff together.
00:28:59 - Sam McNeill
Yeah, yeah. I mean, we'll do it really quickly. We'll have, like, you know, 30 minutes or 15 minutes at the start of a conference, 15 minutes at the end. That's more energizer kind of stuff for me. The ones I really love is where we've got a minimum an hour, normally 60 minutes. Sorry, not be 90 minutes, because that's when you can get them really involved, and that's really fun because then they're really getting into it, as opposed to the other ones where it's a bit. All right, let's go, everyone. Up on your feet. Sing along if you, you know, if you can.
Cultural Differences
00:29:26 - Andy Goram
I still think that's incredible, Sam. Like, in 90 minutes, we'll turn your values into a personalized song. I mean, that's going to get some meaning and connection and some ownership to it. Unbelievable. You mentioned earlier that maybe different cultures take a different approach to this sort of stuff. No surprise to me that the Brits might be a little bit more. Stand back and watch and observe and slowly get pulled in. Do you really see that? Sort of, like, big differences around the globe, but does the result end the same no matter what or.
00:30:00 - Sam McNeill
Yeah, what. Yeah, it's really bizarre. End result, always the Same. Big, the start. Very. Australia and England, very similar. Very like, oh, really? Do we have to do this? But they're polite about it. But they're like, oh, goodness me. Okay. And then, like I said, about ten minutes in, they're all in. Asia is the most interesting because they're very polite and they love music and they love karaoke and they love all that. But there's this. It's a core, it's an organizational, cultural thing, I think, permission based.
00:30:36 - Andy Goram
A lot of hierarchy, isn't there? Respect and various bits.
00:30:39 - Sam McNeill
Yeah. So you want to be there, you got to be seen to be into it because your boss is in the room, but you probably wouldn't call out a value that you didn't align with. You know, you're probably being a little bit quieter about that, that kind of thing.
00:30:51 - Andy Goram
You're not going to question your boss's lyric choice.
00:30:53 - Sam McNeill
Exactly. Yes, perfect. "Perfect lyric, boss." Um, exactly. So. But they absolutely love it, too. But they're. They're into it. They're just quiet. They're you. You know, I used to, before we had an office in Singapore, I'd ran all the events in Singapore and Asia, and I would go over and go like, oh, this is tough. They're not enjoying this, or it's hard, but they were loving it. They're just, they're not. They're just quieter.
00:31:18 - Andy Goram
But I think that's great, isn't it? I mean, I've learned that lesson, I think, over the years of facilitation and all those sorts of things in that.
00:31:23 - Sam McNeill
Yeah.
00:31:24 - Andy Goram
Whilst my personality might be, come on, let's answer the questions. Let's get stuck into everything. Let's give us everything now.
00:31:29 - Sam McNeill
Yeah.
00:31:30 - Andy Goram
That's not everybody. And sometimes those reflective, measured personalities are very helpful for sitting back and seeing what's going on and then come through with a truth bomb or a kind of nice bit of summary or maybe for you, a kind of observation of a lyric or something like that. That really helps a group.
00:31:48 - Sam McNeill
Yeah. And we've done them in 15. I think it's, well, 16 languages now as well. So they really, even if the whole song's not in Mandarin or whatever, or Cantonese, we'll. We'll make sure that there's some phrases that are in there, and they love that. They just want to feel included. Like, who does, who doesn't want to feel like that's that, you know, that sense of belonging, you know? So. Oh, we did this job with HP, actually. It was a song slam. So one song in English, one song in Japanese, one song in Mandarin.
00:32:16 - Andy Goram
Okay.
00:32:17 - Sam McNeill
And, um, they said, that's all. It's good, it's good, it's good. But just, you know, because we're going to perform the songs after dinner. They just said, we got to do that soon, because the Chinese group, they leave straight after dinner. They won't. They don't want to. They don't stay for the dancing set. They're always leave straight. So we've got to make sure we do it anyway. Halfway through dinner, this group of Chinese, six or seven of them, said we could get up and sing some Chinese opera after dinner. I said, of course. Yeah, of course. So the client just could not believe it.
00:32:46 - Andy Goram
Wow.
00:32:47 - Sam McNeill
Like, these guys do not say a word. They stayed for the party sets. They got up and sang a Chinese opera. It was like, it was amazing. And I think that people just have these assumptions and print, not prejudices. That's probably a bit harsh, but these assumptions that, oh, they won't want to do that, or they'll go home after dinner or they won't get up on the stage. Well, have you ever asked them? Have you ever invited them onto the stage? That was. I just only remembered that just now. That was really cool.
Watching Relationships Change In The Room
00:33:13 - Andy Goram
I mean, you must see some sort of relationship belonging changes happening within groups when they're going through this process. I mean, what's that like to observe?
00:33:24 - Sam McNeill
It's really. It's really special. I can. I can tell a company's culture normally within ten minutes of an event. Really? Well, yeah. Well, definitely by the end. It's the ones where they do an award ceremony and they have the stand up. If you've been here for five years, ten years, 15 years, 20 years, 25 years, and at 25 years, there's still 15 people standing up, and you're like, okay, you guys are cool. You probably don't need. You probably don't need us, to be honest. You're fine just yet. It's. Staff retention is a big. Is a big giveaway. Yeah, we get to see some. Some. It's mostly positive, to be honest. Most people who book song division, they don't need to be convinced of the investment in people and values and. And engagement. So we're very rarely doing it with a company who has terrible culture, because if they do, they probably see our price point and go, no, that sounds like a waste of money. It's like, okay, well, you're not right for us. You don't get it. You need to have some level of understanding of how important employee engagement is, and most companies we work with have that already, so we're just there to strengthen it.
00:34:27 - Andy Goram
I think that's. That's such a great observation, because when you have, in a battle with a client on this stuff, no one wins. No one wins. There has to be the sort of an innate desire to do something, but perhaps not know how to do it, or it's failed in some. For some reason, or you struggle to get stuff, which is where I think, I'm so fascinated by what you do, because it's such a different mechanic to trying to get to the Same end goal here of coming together around a set of common values that helps everybody, adds value to the business, gets us where we're going, but we feel connected to. And out of all the. All the methodology that I have either done myself or researched, this is different. This is really interesting stuff.
Tying In The Messaging
00:35:14 - Sam McNeill
Yeah, well, lucky, because I don't. I've done other good team building. I've facilitated other team building for other companies when I was younger, and there is some stuff out there that's great. You know, building bikes for chat charities, even the drumming circle stuff that we, you know, we got people who do similar in our world, this powerful stuff out there. There's nothing I've seen that ties the messaging. Because that's the bit.
00:35:39 - Andy Goram
Yeah, because we can.
00:35:40 - Sam McNeill
We can all get into a state of euphoria and love, and that can be through building, doing something for charity or doing an experience. But when you're in that moment and you can tie it to a message, that's the thing that I haven't actually seen done well anywhere else, because I don't know how else he would do that. I mean, I've seen graffiti quite like, I've done the graffiti where you can, you know, you can learn how to do graffiti of your values. That's a pretty cool experience, but it's. It's not really coming close to that linking of music and melody and that bringing of people together.
00:36:11 - Andy Goram
Yeah, I mean, we've talked about or highlighted emotion a couple of times. As a guy in the room who sees this on an occasion. Can you see that moment when there. There gets a genuine emotional connection to the words? People kind of, like, get into a different space about something that could have been seen as a sort of faceless entity, but all of a sudden they feel connected. What happens? What do you see? What do you smell at that point?
00:36:38 - Sam McNeill
Sweat.
00:36:41 - Andy Goram
It's hot.
00:36:41 - Sam McNeill
It's often very hot. There is a real. So, yeah, I mentioned we do this thing called a song slam, which is if they've got a bit more time, we'll break them into three or four teams and they'll have to write their own song. And then we have a battle of the bands. That is okay. Not only are we doing something which is going to bring everyone together, but there's a bit of friendly competition and we've got a. We've got a, you know, we want to beat the other team and our song's going to win. When we perform those songs, even. Even if you're not the winning song or whatever it is, there is this, all of a sudden, this euphoric, like I said, this feeling of love that you can almost feel in the room like an electricity. And these. And then the other teams watching, you know, we're competing, but we say, like, hey, give, you know, let's. Let's fan out for every group. And so you've got the other groups on, watching their competitors playing and they're clapping along or they're singing the call and response. So everyone's in, even if it's not their song, and it's just high fives, hugs. I can't explain it. And then someone knows how to breakdance. All of a sudden, and then someone's on someone's shoulders and then someone's crowd surfing.
00:37:48 - Andy Goram
And you're describing the canteen at the School of Fame.
00:37:52 - Sam McNeill
Exactly. Yeah. It all gets a little bit west side story. Yeah. Yeah. I wish I could explain it better. You'll have to come on it.
00:38:01 - Andy Goram
I'd love to, mate. I would love to see. I'd really love to see it in action. That'd be amazing. Before we sort of, like, think about wrapping this conversation up, which I don't want to do, but you must get some great feedback. Host events about impact and what's changed any spring to mind that you think you'd love to share with the world?
Witnessing The Impact
00:38:24 - Sam McNeill
Yeah, well, we get a lot of. We work a lot with repeat clients because they've had the experience and they want to, and we'll do something different with them. We'll do another music based experience or we'll revamp the song or things like that, which is really, like, lovely feedback. We don't do a lot of one offs. Once someone works with us and they see what we can achieve and that relationship, it's super healthy. So that's, for me, just really lovely feedback. We don't do a lot of one off events with clients. And then there's just like, yeah, I'll get. Well, one of the best ones was actually, we did a job with Spotify and this is back in Australia years ago. And then three years after that, I was at a pub and I got quite violently grabbed by the guy behind me and I was like, oh, gosh, what's going on here? And he, like, spun me around. He's like, you hosted that Spotify event. And he just started yelling this song at me in my face, this Spotify song we'd written. And I was like, wow, okay. Because it does, you know, we say that you'll be. You'll be able to sing the song for years to come. And then that actually happened. So. And I will wake up in the night singing songs about Ned Tronic and Bayer and I HSBC as well, that they do. They are annoyingly catchy and they will stick in your head. We try and we do customer surveys, feedback. Yeah, we get all that kind of stuff. We did an event recently and I definitely can't say who that one was, but it was really nice because it was a beautiful conference. It was a three day event, and the. The conference itself got a 4.8 out of five rating from all attendees. And. And our session got 4.9. So it was just like. And that was a really fun one. I walked on stage and they'd set up the room like it was like a Ronnie Scott's bar.
00:40:22 - Andy Goram
Oh, wow.
00:40:23 - Sam McNeill
Cool. And I just. And it was. It was eight in the morning and. Or maybe nine in the morning, and some rough heads. And they came in, the room was all dark, and we were playing, like, a jam, a funk jam, and they were up for it from the get go. And that was nice. But actually, funnily enough, half the group had flown over from America, so that...
00:40:40 - Andy Goram
The catalysts were in the room then.
00:40:42 - Sam McNeill
Yeah. So I was like, all right, meet the band. Put the photos up. They're just going nuts. It's like nine in the morning. They said, we're going to write a song. Yeah. I was like, oh, this is going to be. That's exciting. Like, this is going to be easy from the get go. But, yeah, generally the feedback is. You guys came. Part of my language. I thought that was going to be crap, and it was. And it was the best thing I've ever done. And also, people are still buzzing. Like weeks, months later, people are still buzzing. And we play this. We record the songs as well for them. You get a professional recording of the song afterwards, so they can do what they want with them, but they'll often play them at their quarterlies and their meetings. And I think there's a real, genuine appreciation, which is really nice with our clients. Like, we, you know, wouldn't say we all become friends, but there's a. There's a rapport there and an equal business stature that they're, like, very appreciative of what we did. You've really came in and made a difference, and they appreciate that.
Achieving Employee Engagement, Productivity & Culture Change
00:41:34 - Andy Goram
And I think this is the thing, right? Because if we really want to achieve employee engagement, productivity, culture change, whatever, whichever goal we're after, for me, in all the work that I. Lucky enough to do, it all comes down to belief and connection, right? If you got those things, then you can commit to doing the things that the business needs to kind of do and you feel comfortable doing. And it seems to me like you're wrapping all this up in something very different and very fun and really getting that sense of connection, meaning and belonging, which is. Yeah, we would all love that when it comes to this stuff.
00:42:10 - Sam McNeill
Well, that's why I thought what you do is so interesting. I mean, when we met, because I, I didn't know you and I didn't know what sticky from the inside even really meant. And, and that's what, that is everything, that's what we're all about, is your, your people are what makes an organization great. We're very big on that. We live and die by what we sell. We have very strong values at Song Division. We got a very strong culture. If we didn't do what we're saying that we're trying to do for other companies, we didn't do it ourselves, it wouldn't work. So we're in, we're bought in, we do it, we write songs. We have our company retreat every year and we, we'll do a session just to keep us all on our toes. We'll take turns in hosting, which is fun because you've got a bunch of musicians in the room who probably your toughest audience. But we are very, we're a team. We're a global organization that would really go above and beyond for each other and a very close knit company. And so we're trying to be exactly what it is that we're creating for other, for other organizations. And I just loved that idea. I'd never heard of the concept of sticky from the inside, so it's really, it was really cool.
00:43:26 - Andy Goram
Well, bless you. I think when you find the connection between what drives the business and what drives the people within it, magic happens, my friend.
00:43:33 - Sam McNeill
It is. And that's what people say. They, God, you guys are into it. People always say, whenever I tell them what I do, they're like, man, you can really tell you're really into this. I'm not, I'm not faking it, but we're all obsessed, all the musicians. And when we all get together, we, all we want to do is jam, play more music. We just, it's just a really beautiful thing. It's all top down, too. As far as our, you know, Andy and his wife Marsha, who's our head of global growth, just gorgeous people. I feel super lucky. I've been doing it now since. Yeah, it's going to be 817 years or something.
Sticky Notes Of Wisdom
00:44:09 - Andy Goram
Wow. Amazing. Amazing. Sam, I've spoken to you a couple of times. It's always a whirlwind. You've got so much energy and passion, which I absolutely love. I would have this conversation for a lot longer than I have today, given the chance. But in an attempt to summarize where we've got to today, my friend, I have this part of the show called Sticky Notes, which is where I try and see if you can give us three pearls of wisdom that you could fit on little sticky notes. And in this. In this case, if people are looking to try and, I don't know, improve employee engagement, get more connection to things like values and mission statements, all the rest of it. What three pieces of advice would you give them to look at this in a different way?
00:44:57 - Sam McNeill
Okay. Well, the first one I was going to say is a bit of a song division tagline, but it's just so true. And it is. Life's better with music. And I'm biased, obviously, but unfortunately, it is true, even if you're not into the science of it all. Life is just better with music. There's a second one I thought was I really, we had a client, I think it was KFC in Australia. But they, the big boss said, you know what I like about you guys? You take fun seriously. That's nice. And so I'd say take fun seriously doesn't need to be song division. You know, there's things you can do with your people to bring out the fun and the child, the inner child in them. Music's just one of them. I mean, I was gonna steal. I've got a few, but I also like just coming back to what I just said about you, mate. Be sticky from the inside. You're only as good as the people that are on your team and in your own organization. So make sure that they're looked after and feel engaged and feel they have purpose within the organization and feel that they have a voice and feel that they have buy in. I don't know. How do you summarize that in a sticky note?
00:46:08 - Andy Goram
I'll take that as your sticky note, mate. Believe me, that is all that needs to be said.
00:46:14 - Sam McNeill
And you don't have to book song division, by the way. We love you do. But there's gift music with few ideas. We always share with our clients is create a work playlist where everyone can add their music they love to listen to when they're working. Gift. The gift of music vouchers, concert tickets, you know, that kind of stuff. There's so many ways that don't need to cost you an arm and a leg to bring music into your workplace. It don't have to be with song division either. We'd love it if it was.
00:46:39 - Andy Goram
But of course. And so, look, if people want to find out a bit more about you and song division, Sam, where should they go?
Getting In Contact
00:46:45 - Sam McNeill
So it's all song division. Songdivision.com social media is all at song division. Cheeky plug. Actually, we've just rolled out a brand new program called Team Harmony. So that's a part L and D meets part immersive learning. And there's six modules within that. So rather than we're going to write a song about your values or your sales targets, they're more training based workshops where we, you know, for example, the first module is called team cohesion. There's a module on belonging, there's a module on employee feedback, and we'll explore the pillars required to, you know, to run a cohesive team, for example. And then we'll write a song about that. So it doesn't have to be messy values based. So we're really excited about that. You can go to songdivision.com and you'll find the team harmony link which is on there. Yeah. And then I'd love anyone to grab me on LinkedIn. I'm a big LinkedIn guy, so if you please, please find me on there as well.
00:47:40 - Andy Goram
Yes. If anybody listening is struggling for energy one day, just try and find one of Sam's posts there. You won't be suffering with energy loss for very long. Sam, I have loved talking to you today, mate. Thank you so much for coming on, my friend.
00:47:54 - Sam McNeill
Me too, man. I really appreciate you having me. I'm a big fan and I wish do it again sometime. Next time I'll have the guitar.
Podcast Close
00:48:03 - Andy Goram
Now that does sound very David Brent, which we will leave well in the rearview mirror. You take care, my friend.
00:48:09 - Sam McNeill
All right, mate. Thanks, Andy.
00:48:10 - Andy Goram
All the best.
Okay, everyone, that was Sam McNeill, and if you'd like to find out a bit more about him or any of the things we've talked about today, please check out the show notes.
So that concludes today's episode. I hope you've enjoyed it, found it interesting, and heard something maybe that will help you become a stickier, more successful business from the inside going forward. If you have, please, like, comment and subscribe. It really helps. I'm Andy Goram, and you've been listening to the Sticky from the Inside podcast. Until next time, thanks for listening.
Andy Goram is the owner of Bizjuicer, an employee engagement and workplace culture consultancy that's on a mission to help people have more fulfilling work lives. He's also the host of the Sticky From The Inside Podcast, which talks to experts on these topics from around the world.
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