The hospitality industry is in the midst of a leadership crisis. With middle managers leaving, generational shifts creating cultural gaps, and a widening skill deficit, businesses are struggling to develop strong leaders from within.
In the latest episode of Sticky From The Inside, I sit down with Michelle Pascoe, a hospitality expert with decades of experience in team and customer retention, to discuss how we can stop treating hospitality as just a job and start turning it into a career.
The Middle Management Void: Why It’s a Big Problem
One of the biggest challenges facing hospitality today is the disappearance of experienced middle managers. As Michelle points out, the combination of Brexit (in the UK), COVID-19, and changing work expectations has driven many highly skilled managers out of the industry—and businesses are still scrambling to fill the gap.
Many businesses have tried to solve the problem by hiring externally, but this often leads to leadership without deep industry knowledge. Meanwhile, younger, ambitious employees want to grow quickly, but they lack the structured development needed to thrive in leadership roles.
The result? Hospitality businesses are caught in a cycle of high turnover, skill gaps, and frustrated employees who don’t see a future in the industry.
Generational Shifts: The Double-Edged Sword
With four generations in the workforce and six generations of customers, hospitality businesses must navigate very different mindsets and expectations. Michelle highlights two key generational challenges:
1️⃣ Experienced leaders are retiring, taking years of knowledge with them. Many long-time hospitality professionals are stepping away, leaving gaps in mentorship and institutional knowledge.
2️⃣ Younger employees want fast progression—but are they getting the right support? Millennials and Gen Z workers often don’t want to wait years for promotions, yet many aren’t being developed properly before being pushed into leadership roles.
Michelle argues that businesses must bridge the gap by fostering mentorship, knowledge-sharing, and leadership development early—or risk losing another generation of talent.
Flipping the Narrative: Hospitality as a Career, Not Just a Job
For decades, hospitality has been seen as a temporary stopgap—a way to earn money while studying, traveling, or figuring out a career path. But this mindset is holding the industry back.
Michelle urges businesses to actively reframe the industry’s reputation by: ✅ Highlighting clear career pathways and progression opportunities. ✅ Using storytelling to showcase inspiring hospitality career journeys. ✅ Creating leadership programs that develop talent from the start.
"People don’t know the true breadth of opportunity in hospitality," Michelle says. "We need to show them what’s possible—whether that’s running a restaurant, working in a resort, becoming a sommelier, or traveling the world judging food competitions."
The Secret Ingredient: Human Connection
At its core, hospitality is about human connection. No matter how much technology or AI is introduced, the experience customers remember most is personal interaction.
Michelle believes that strong leadership comes from fostering genuine engagement—both with employees and customers. Leaders who connect, communicate, and create a sense of belonging build stronger, more resilient teams.
What’s Next? Building Leadership Pipelines that Work
To develop the next generation of hospitality leaders, businesses must: 🔹 Introduce leadership skills early—don’t wait for employees to “grow into” leadership. 🔹 Create mentorship opportunities between senior and junior employees. 🔹 Recognize that leadership is about more than technical skills—it’s about emotional intelligence, connection, and resilience.
Michelle shares an example of a hospitality business where managers spend half their shifts in leadership roles and the other half working frontline positions. This unique approach removes the “us vs. them” dynamic and helps build real connections between leadership and staff.
Final Thoughts: How Do We Build a Stronger Hospitality Industry?
As we wrapped up the episode, Michelle left us with three powerful takeaways:
1️⃣ Be a positive leader and role model—set boundaries, inspire confidence, and lead with purpose.
2️⃣ Ignite the potential in others—many employees don’t realize their own potential until someone helps them see it.
3️⃣ Connect with your community—the more businesses engage with schools, career programs, and employees at every stage, the stronger the industry will become.
📢 Now, it’s your turn. What do you think? How can hospitality do a better job of growing future leaders? Let’s continue the conversation in the comments!
🎧 You can listen to the full episode via the player below, or read the full transcript at the bottom of this post.
Full Episode Transcript
[Andy Goram] (0:10 - 4:00)
Hello and welcome to Sticky from the Inside, the employee engagement podcast that looks at how to build stickier, competition-smashing, consistently successful organisations from the inside out. I'm your host Andy Goram and I'm on a mission to help more businesses turn the lights on behind the eyes of their employees, light the fires within them and create tonnes more success for everyone. This podcast is for all those who believe that's something worth going after and would like a little help and guidance in achieving that.
Each episode we dive into the topics that can help create what I call stickier businesses, the sort of businesses where people thrive and love to work and where more customers stay with you and recommend you to others because they love what you do and why you do it. So if you want to take the tricky out of being sticky, listen on.
The Leadership Crisis in Hospitality
Okay then, I think hospitality as an industry is in crisis, globally.
Not the kind of crisis where people aren't eating out or travelling because they are, no matter how hard this or any other government in a country tries to make it harder. But I think it's a leadership crisis, particularly in this country. In this country, in the UK, Brexit ripped a hole in the recruitment and management pool.
COVID-19 shut down the industry and we saw a mass exodus of experienced middle managers leaving and leaving behind skill gaps, knowledge gaps and a whole lot of businesses scrambling still to find their footing today. And now, in the UK, the National Insurance Threshold increase, due in April, is adding greater costs to business and making some businesses question the policy of recruiting younger, less experienced people into their business. But while some of the symptoms may be unique to the UK in domain, the hospitality industry in many other places around the world is facing similar issues.
So what's the solution? Many businesses have pulled in managers from other industries to bring fresh perspectives and ideas. But without deep hospitality knowledge, that could also bring its own set of problems.
Meanwhile, younger, ambitious, eager employees who are full of potential stepping into the industry are often frustrated by low wages, long hours and a lack of clear career progression. They want to grow fast, but are they getting the right support? So today, we're tackling this big question.
How do we stop treating hospitality as just a job and start building it as a career? And more importantly, how do we develop leaders from within so the industry doesn't just survive but thrives going forwards? To help us explore this, I'm joined by someone who knows this world inside out, Michelle Pascoe.
Michelle is a hospitality specialist and team and customer retention expert and a fierce advocate for leadership development in an industry that desperately needs it. Based in Australia, and growing up on a turkey farm, her journey has taken her from being educated in a one room Bush School to building one of Australia's most respected training and research businesses. She's spent decades working with hospitality businesses to build stronger teams, create better customer experiences, and most importantly, develop the kind of leaders who stick around and make a real impact.
So who better to have with me than discuss all of this stuff that's going on? Michelle, welcome to the show.
[Michelle Pascoe] (4:00 - 4:12)
Thank you so much, Andy. I'm really going to enjoy our conversation. We've had a few in the past few months.
And I can hopefully share some insights with your wonderful audience and listeners.
[Andy Goram] (4:13 - 4:35)
Oh, well, I know you will be able to. You've said we've spoken before we this is maybe our third conversation in about as many months, which is which is just lovely. And I mentioned very briefly your background, Michelle, which it mean that is a whole podcast in itself.
And can you just share a little bit of background with where you've come from what you get up to and what you're focused on today?
Michelle’s Background: From a Turkey Farm to Hospitality Leadership
[Michelle Pascoe] (4:37 - 6:24)
Yeah, happy to. So my background, yes, you know, growing up on a turkey farm, I've got very strong roots with the Scottish grandparents. And, you know, this hard work ethic of growing up on a farm, and then, you know, being told by a vocational guidance at school, oh, you're not smart enough to go to university.
So you think to yourself, well, what can I do? And, you know, I went into secretarial college started in the hospitality industry back then, but not outpouring beers or serving plates, hardly can do that. But more of the typing in the background and building the brands through the customer service and, and that connection.
And then rightly so, you know, over a number of years of experience, starting my own company back in 1994, and then quickly getting into the hospitality industry. I love the people that I work with. I predominantly work with the registered club industry here in Australia.
So I know it's very different to what you had there in the UK. But if you look at some of your private clubs, or if any of your listeners have been to America, and you've gone to a Native American casino, is that sort of size of club, they're usually connected to our rugby league groups, or our return service league. So the men who particularly came back from our World War Two, they started these clubs, and they've grown and they support our community strongly.
But as we're going to discuss today, we've got a lot of all at this point in time, we have four generations in the workplace, and six generations of customers that are coming into the hospitality, whether it's serving a coffee at your local cafe, or serving a beautiful fine dining experience.
[Andy Goram] (6:24 - 6:55)
I think that's going to definitely form part of this conversation today. Because I've in the intro talked about a lot of our lived experience here in the UK with a lot of stuff going on. I mean, that itself could almost feel like a crisis.
But we're sort of really trying to focus on the, well, I've positioned it as a sort of leadership crisis, you started to bring in stuff around generations and what have you, this whole topic of trying to sort of like build strength from within. Now, that's not just a UK thing, right? You must see this in a lot of your work today.
The Leadership Crisis: Losing Middle Management Post-COVID
[Michelle Pascoe] (6:56 - 8:43)
Oh, look, definitely. You know, it's quite, when I say it's funny, it's, you know, over the last 30 years, I'm sure I've looked a lot older. But you know, I go in and I see the CEOs, I'm thinking, geez, you're looking a bit old.
I'm thinking, I'm probably looking the same. And the fact is, you know, I've seen them grow up from young boys. And, you know, I have been very fortunate, Andy, that some of those young, you know, guys and girls, you know, who I trained all those years ago, have taken me on their personal journey, you know, going from cleaning ashtrays and sharpening the Kino pencils, you know, and the bingo blotters, right through to now being CEOs.
But they're also at that point in their lives, you know, I've seen them, you know, get married, have children, and now moving on to grandchildren, that they're starting to look at retirement. And I, you know, we're talking about the generational leadership crisis we have now, you know, with the younger ones coming in, because of that middle management that we've lost so many during COVID. But my real concern, apart from that, is we're going to learn, we're going to lose a lot of that real top heavy end, definitely in the next five, certainly in the next 10 years of those retiring.
And it's that institutional knowledge that they'll be going away with. And that's where I see this, this, we need to bridge this gap between those that have been in the industry, hospitality industry for a long time, have sharing that information to a really good, strong, middle management team now, because they'll be quickly into that role of CEO. And then it will be, you know, drip feeding all the way through.
So you know, that that to me is a big concern, because I said, you know, I look at them and they'll say to me, Oh, Michelle, you're looking forward to retirement. I'm thinking, Oh, my goodness, who's the next one who's going to be taking your place?
[Andy Goram] (8:43 - 9:36)
You know, I think we've got this thing of trying to balance the need for the experience, the experience leadership with the reality of the talent shortages we've probably got within within hospitality. So let's dig into that a little bit more. You started to talk about this kind of middle manager group often refer to those as the frozen middle, when I talk to people, because bless them, these are the guys who are trying to interpret the stuff that's coming down from on high.
And then they're trying to get the guys on the floor to actually do stuff. And often, they are the guys just sort of trapped in the middle, sometimes overlooked, sometimes jumped over. But we've seen quite a few of them opt out of the industry.
Over here. What do you see as the biggest consequences that we've got of losing that, that middle management band or weakening it perhaps over the last few years?
The Consequences of Losing Middle Management
[Michelle Pascoe] (9:36 - 11:07)
Yes. And I think, you know, we just like yourselves there in the UK during COVID, hospitality was the first to shut. And the last to close, you know, in Victoria, which is one of our big hospitality states here in Australia, they closed and opened 10 times in 18 months, it was just terrific.
So with that opening and closing, you can't blame middle managers. Because if you if you look at a generational thing, and this is just a generalisation here, but for many of them, they're now at that point in time, they're in that mid to late 30s, they're perhaps, you know, got a mortgage, maybe having a child, and suddenly think that, you know what, I don't know whether this hospitality industry is going to reopen, I really need to get into something that's a solid background, go into finance, go into government department, go into insurance, all those sort of safe, secure entities, you know, and health was another area.
By losing them, we lost this beautiful group that had been trained and was starting to be nurtured, and was starting to be seen as you're going to be my next person who I'm going to tap on the shoulder of the CEO, to them, but they went. And so what we then started to see was this panic, in a, you know, inverted commas, because people started to think that, well, okay, who are we going to get to start leading our team? So I started, you know, I called them the green teams, because we were hiring people.
And within six weeks, they were now made a supervisor.
[Andy Goram] (11:07 - 11:07)
Yeah.
[Michelle Pascoe] (11:07 - 11:56)
And so that was trying to learn the ropes of being in the hospitality industry. Well, you know, they had that little bit of initiative. So well, they're pretty good.
So let's, let's move them up. But what we then started to find out was that burnout, because they moved up so quickly, that they didn't have that good, solid foundation of skill set, and that ability to make those mistakes and learn from them. Instead, it was making mistakes and learning, but also being seen by, you know, younger ones or newer people coming in that they were also trying to train.
So, you know, it hasn't been easy for this group at all that are coming into this middle management group in the last few years, you know, some have taken it on really well, but others that just said, well, this is either too much, or they're just bunkered down into the doing instead of the showing.
[Andy Goram] (11:56 - 12:37)
I think that's right. And there's a knock on effect to this as well. Because look, we all, whether we're doing it consciously or not, we all end up looking up to our own managers and leaders and mostly following the example that they set, unless we wake up and do something different or better.
But if you're experiencing that kind of migration of people, inconsistency of management and leadership, are we at risk of losing the next generation of leaders before they even get going, looking at what they're experiencing, let alone the environment that in the main, the hospitality industry can give out?
Why Hospitality’s Reputation Is Holding It Back
[Michelle Pascoe] (12:39 - 14:04)
Look, I think we've shot ourselves in the foot, to be honest, for about the last hundred and something years, because, oh, yeah, hospitality, oh, it's hard work, it's long hours, I'm in the kitchen, I'm being screamed at. And it's always been this, I don't know, it's like this badge of honour of, oh, it's a hard job, you know, I have no personal life. And so instead of going out and saying, gee, this is great, this industry, you know, I get the opportunity to learn from the best in that kitchen.
And I get to meet all these different, but we've never talked it up. And that's probably the biggest thing we've been seeing since COVID here, particularly in the register club industry, talk about the positive things we do, talk about how we connect with the community, because that's how you're going to connect with the Gen Zs in particular. And of course, our Alphas that will be coming through in the next four years, because they're very community minded.
It's not just about work and a dollar, it's about work, community, and of course, we all need money. But to me, it's we've got to be thinking more positive. And I think, you know, we've, we've done too much of, oh, it's a hard job to have Andy, but working in the hospitality industry, instead of flipping it and going, yes, it is hard, but you can have a lot of fun.
And that's where I think we've lost this, this this group, because people now go, well, do you really want to work in that industry that has always been negative? It's always been hard?
[Andy Goram] (14:04 - 15:47)
Well, who's gonna vote for that? Who's gonna vote? Just not gonna, I have to say, there's a couple of things in all of this, you know, I'm a, I'm a passionate hospitality guy, you know, I cut my teeth in that in that industry, you know, linked to hospitality, my first job was in a bakery, and getting my backside kicked around a very small kitchen by some, some incredibly dedicated, brilliantly talented, older females.
And I learned work ethic, I learned joy at work, I learned new skills, I learned teamwork, I learned so much. And all the weird things that we do wear as a badge of honour, like long hours and unsociable hours, I actually enjoyed, I loved that I voted for that maybe I'm, maybe I'm a bit weird, you know, but when I worked in America in hotels and stuff, you know, I had those kind of like finish at midnight shifts, occasionally. But then my social life took on a whole different time of day.
And it was a very, very different world is fantastic. In here in this country, you know, UK hospitality, are trying to work on something called hospitality rising, which is trying to create this positive image of hospitality, which is great, right? But I'm not quite sure a flashy ad is going to convince somebody that hospitality is the thing, we're only as strong as the weakest operators out there.
And so I think we have a big job to do with with hospitality, and this this badge of honour that you're so right, that we sort of wear to sort of say, yeah, yeah, yeah, it's really, really tough. I mean, why would you engage with that? I don't understand it.
[Michelle Pascoe] (15:47 - 18:49)
Yes, yes. So let's get out there. Let's be positive.
But you know, this is not wearing the rose tinted glasses either. I mean, yes, we are doing the midnight, you know, shifts on the 3am. And you know, somebody does have to clean up, you know, some other person's left in the bathroom, or, you know, they had to separate people that are getting a little bit hot under the collar, or, you know, you're going to have that meal sent back because they don't like it, because they believe you haven't cooked it the right way.
That's just humans. We have, you know, it's just the way people get agitated. Not everybody's polite.
However, there are so many positive things. And to me, it's looking at those, it's those sharing the stories. I think that is the biggest thing.
You know, I started with a new leadership program on Monday with this fantastic team of 16 of them, and, you know, a variety of ages. And some of them have been in this venue for 25 years. And I said, "Yeah, it's the stories, I could come in here and just give you the six points of blah, blah, blah."
But I said, "Share the stories." And it's the stories and the impact that we have as leaders that make a difference. And there was one lady in there.
And she said, "When I started here 20 years ago," and tears started to form in her eyes, she looked across the table, and she said, "that lady there, she at the end of every shift, came up and said, thank you to every one of us." And she goes, "I remember that she would stand at the door, and she would say, thank you." And the young one said, "Oh, my goodness, we can picture her in that, in that at that door."
And I think that's the biggest impact. That's how we connect with people, we can go in, and we can say, this is the way you've got to do it. Yes.
And as you said, Andy, your butt was kicked. But it was kicked for a reason to show you like, you can't go do the whole six steps at once. There's got to be a certain I think that's what we're seeing a lot of this pushback where, you know, some people are going all these young ones, they want everything straight away.
Well, they do, they're not going to wait the 10 year tenure. And I don't think they should. Why should they wait 10 years to get the next roll up, just because although the next in line, instead of going, you're showing initiative, do that.
But it's getting them and showing them and that story of, yes, you could do that. But this is what could happen if you do it, because that's, that's the pushback we're getting, you know, young ones to go, Oh, yeah, but I think you could do it this way, that way. And the CAO goes, yes, we could.
But if we did that, let's just keep going along that line. And where would it end up? And you've literally got to take them on their own path, you know, on a little bit of paper and having a conversation there.
Oh, yes, I see what you mean. It's not going to work out. But they've got to work through that themselves, instead of just going, that doesn't work, have a conversation, say, okay, let's look at that way.
And where will we end? And is it going to be the best thing for the business and yourself and the crew, whatever it might be? So, yeah, absolutely.
Generational Gaps and Leadership Differences
[Andy Goram] (18:50 - 19:46)
I also think when it comes to this generational thing, if we're honest with ourselves, and I put myself in the slightly older bracket, right, I'm an Xer, is that I reckon there's a certain amount of jealousy from some of the older generations. But when we see the younger generations, either not doing something or asking questions or wanting to understand why I've got to do something, or choosing to do something differently, I think there's a little bit of disgruntlement. Occasionally, from the older generation say, well, hang on, we had to do this, we were told to do this.
But I think the kind of resentment or the jealousy or whatever the word really is, is that we go, yeah, blimey, I wish I'd kind of pushed back, back in the day, maybe, or been braver to offer my opinion, or, or maybe look at it a different way. And there's less stigma for that for some of these younger generations. And maybe there's a bit of, you know, argy bargy going on there.
[Michelle Pascoe] (19:47 - 21:24)
I agree. And you've got to think about with those, like you were saying, Gen X, you were taught by people that were pre veterans. So you've got to think about what each generation, how they're being, you know, brought through the actual, you know, their first job.
And so when we look at the young ones, I agree, they are asking questions. But let's put it this way, I think we had an opportunity as Gen X and baby boomers, to come from a generation where people had to have used their initiative. Even if they weren't working on a farm, they weren't able to go to the shop and buy that new cord or buy that new something you had to use that I remember, you know, my father, because my parents were a lot older, and I had three much older brothers.
But I know my father said, well, you know, if the car broke down, you could use a pair of women's stockings to, you know, for the fan belt. And he showed me how to change the fuse in a fuse box, and change tires of cars and things like that. Because and we just knew that because that was the generation that they come from, like my father, come up during the depression, that you had to do things.
So when we got the young ones asking questions, and this is the same as my own children and grandchildren, it's because they haven't had that opportunity to learn how to use a stocking as a fan belt. I know your audience is probably thinking what am I talking about? But they don't have that natural initiative, or that intuition to say, "Ah, yes, I know how we could fix this."
So we've got to help them. Don't you think? I think so.
[Andy Goram] (21:25 - 23:03)
But yeah, I think so. But I think there's also the fact that a lot of their world has been they've been brought up with everything being on demand or get it get access to, and certainly getting access to answers to things. You know, the day that I got my first set of encyclopedias, they were out of date.
You know, researching bits and pieces for school, you know, you get a book, no, that's out of date. There's only so much you can fit in there. But today, they can get hold of an answer anything, you know, I could be in a, in a facilitation talking about a topic or a concept or a model, I'll get fact checked in the room on someone's phone, because they can find the answer.
So if they can find the answers to anything that they like, and they're in a business, and they ask questions, and they don't get the answers, well, why is that you don't you not trust me did what's going on, there's a relationship problem here. There's all sorts of things that can frame, I think, a broader perspective on on things, you know, and I think this is where the generational bit has to come from it is both sides of the spectrum, whatever generation you're sitting in, I think open mindedness and looking at different perspectives can only help us get better. I think what's really interesting from the generational stuff, is we're seeing bigger gaps, I think, in the, in the millennials, and in the Gen Zs, that we've ever had before within the generational cohorts, the change the nuance between the two, mainly made driven by environment and technology, perhaps, I don't know, but that's going to have an impact on how we set people up for success, how we take them through, through growth inside a business, whether they're open for that growth inside a business, all those sorts of things.
[Michelle Pascoe] (23:04 - 25:01)
Very, very much so. And, you know, as you rightly said, those millennials, those Gen Ys are now in their early 40s. And for many of those, they are certainly in that middle management category.
They're the parents of our alphas. And those little beaters are also as well. So you know, they're, they're looking at a world where they ask those questions about why, and a lot of those sacred cows were removed.
But once again, they're now at a level where they are taking on these roles. And they've got in the back of the mind how they were taught in their early years of hospitality, but also realising through Gen Z, who, you know, for many years, their Gen Z, particularly if you look at research in the USA, they were actually leapfrogging Gen Y in hospitality, because some of them or many of them were happy to actually stand beside a chef, if you look at research in a back of house, to soak up the knowledge, weren't getting paid, but they wanted to soak up that knowledge.
And we see that time and time again with Gen Z, that they may be for many of them highly educated, but they don't have that knowledge. And they're seeking that desperately. So they're soaking it up like a sponge.
So we look at that Gen Y now that are leading this group, who with Gen Z, that they have that ability, but they just don't have that wisdom and knowledge. So how do Gen, well the Millennials, Gen Y show that to them, when they're trying to now be the leaders? So it's not easy for any of them.
And I think that's where it comes at, these conversations. It's having these conversations, it's letting people know where you are on this journey. And it's not just putting people in generational brackets that, you know, they can't hold a certain position because they're not a certain age.
[Andy Goram] (25:01 - 26:00)
Yeah, I think this is what's really interesting. Because if we link what we just talked about from generations, and we think about this sort of tough job of being in the middle. Maybe, maybe this is why some of the internal leadership pipelines are a bit broken or fractured.
Because we've got we've got lots of things going on all over the place. From your perspective. And I mean, I know you do a lot of work in this area.
So I expect we're going to hit another common viewpoint here. But I'm going to ask the question anyway. But in the hospitality industry, globally, let's let's put it in that in that perspective.
What do you think is preventing us from developing stronger leaders from within today? Is it a combination of the things we've talked about? Is it is it something else that's that's going on?
What do you see? Are we have we not got the right focus on the right skills when it comes to sort of development for leadership in hospitality?
How Technology and AI Are Reshaping Hospitality Leadership
[Michelle Pascoe] (26:01 - 29:42)
It's hard to it's really hard to say. But I think it is a combination of what we've already mentioned. But I think it's it's, we have to change our mindset, Andy, that nobody wants to work every weekend, or every public holiday, or Sunday for for additional money.
It's not about that. It is about having this balance in their lives. And you can't blame them.
And I think that's where we do have the older generations, rather than envious and jealous, because, well, maybe we should have stepped up. But how do we how do we develop these leaders that they feel confident in a world that is changing so fast? You know, I was on a webinar last Saturday, and it was for three hours just about AI.
And you know, AI is now 70 years old globally, you know, a lot of people think it's just happened the last few years with chat GPT. But the rapid change that is happening in a workplace And I think, you know, for some of these, you know, Gen Z's, they may be thinking to themselves, well, how is technology going to impact and particularly AI going to impact on the hospitality industry? We will use it, and we need it.
And there's lots of roles that we can have, but we will never lose that human connection in hospitality, we will always be seeking that, because people need each other. So when we look at those roles, as managers coming to those managers roles, to me, it is, we can use the resources of technology, we can utilise the knowledge of the younger ones coming through that, you know, technology is just wired into them. But we've also got to show them that skill of, well, how do we have those conversations with people?
How do we connect? And I think that's where we can marry beautifully, the multiple generations and the leadership styles, because there is that technology and the AI and the resources and the processes and the systems marrying beautifully with, well, how do we talk to somebody? How do we make that connection?
Because a lot of them, it's very easy just to text and not pick up the phone and talk or have that meeting with someone. And I think that's where we need to really focus in the hospitality. It's all about being hospitable, isn't it, Andy?
That's the whole point. And hospitality and being hospitable is talking to somebody, not just texting them or sending them an email. It's actually getting in there, standing at the end of the table, talking to them about the projects, asking them about how their day is.
And yes, you may have heard that it's rained 100 times today, but you still go, oh, my gosh, that is so interesting. You've got, you know, you've got to put your heart in it. And I think the people that hospitality attract, and I know, you know, I think we've mentioned this before, Andy, that we've got a lot more people in our industry now that, and I know, that leaders would not have looked at before COVID.
And it's not saying that they were scraping at the bottom of the barrel. That's not at all. But they're looking at people that see things differently, that may process things differently, that have a beautiful smile, they love to have a chat, or they're really good at just one or two particular things.
And it's this blend of people in hospitality. And, and to me, that's where we'll see the growth in our industry. Because through our leadership, it's acknowledging that we're different, but it's connecting.
And it's that feeling of belonging. But it's everybody on the journey, but they've got to know what that vision and that journey is.
[Andy Goram] (29:42 - 31:43)
I think so. And I actually, I love the fact that you keep talking about connection, because I think that's the difference between service and experience. And I think we are far more focused on experience today.
And the difference is, is connection, you know, you can pick out great hospitality experiences, I suspect most of them aren't about the amazing process that happened behind the scenes. I don't think I've ever gone home after an experience in hospitality. And then waxed lyrical about the process behind it.
Although I'm a geek, so there's every chance I might have done to somebody. But in the main, it's going to be about human interaction that I've had with somebody, it's going to be about somebody who for 30 seconds, I felt that they put like a spotlight on me, and that I was all that mattered to them for a minute. I think that's what we're looking for.
I sometimes think that's what newer people into the industry, like this, like you say, of a slightly different perspective, sometimes struggle with. And they want to go through, you know, the process bit, but we've got to make the human connection is it most of the time in hospitality, it's an exchange of two humans or a group of humans, right? So we've got to do that.
And which is why I think that the bit I want to sort of make sure we do discuss today is this challenge of maybe having to reframe or rethink about our career development paths that we take nowadays, because the old sort of like step one, step two, step three process stuff, I don't think that's valid anymore. And actually, I think we need to maybe start introducing the whole concept of teamwork and leadership a lot earlier into people's time with us. So, you know, yes, combining the steps of service, but really trying to get under the skin of these human skills that we need to.
What's your thought on that? Because I know you do a lot of learning and development and program work. So what's the future look like for you?
Building Leadership Pipelines: Why It Needs to Start Earlier
[Michelle Pascoe] (31:44 - 34:29)
I agree. I think it's showing them that there's a pathway. I think we've got to stop this conversation or have more conversations, but it's not just a stopgap job in hospitality.
You know, I think there's always been this perception that it's, you know, it's your job while you're going through uni or you're doing your apprenticeship or you're saving for a car or your overseas trip or your gap year or whatever it might be, instead of, you know, and I think this is where we really need to step up really quickly and be saying to them, you know, whatever your role is, you're doing it really well. I just want to have this conversation with you because you may be just doing this as a job now to, you know, as a second job or whatever. But I want to show you, are you aware of the different paths there are in hospitality?
I think people know. Like I've had chefs on my podcast, Andy, that have gone from being these chefs and like back house cooks, you know, when they were 14, 15, and they're now traveling around the world, they're judges in food competitions or the, you know, they're with winemakers. And there's so many different things that people can do.
But I don't think people know how expansive our industry is. There is, you could be on a, you know, working in a resort, you could be with, you know, a restaurant, you could be in a small cafe. I've had people that have worked and they build sustainable furniture for restaurants by using different products from old restaurants.
And people just don't realize how wonderful this industry is. But if we don't get in there and tell them, then they're never going to know. They're just going to be there for the couple of years for the pay the car off, had their holiday, got through uni and off they go.
But if we start to show them, which is lovely, and I've always, I'd rather have two good years out of somebody than somebody stuck on oxygen for 20 years and you think, gee, why wouldn't they leave? But that's a whole other conversation. But I think we just need to show them because they don't know.
They honestly don't know where hospitality could take them. You know yourself, Andy, if you can pour a beer and the biggest thing for Australians, I know when I came to the UK in 1982 and I was very young, it was like everybody loved Aussies because you could get a job in a bar and then you get a feed and you'd have accommodation and it was great. And that's the same thing.
If you can pour a good beer, you can work anywhere. If you can carry a couple of plates, hold a decent conversation, turn up clean, people will love you in hospitality. There's so much more.
There is so much more. And there are those that will just continue travelling the world and loving hospitality and they can go wherever they want to because we all need to eat no matter where we are.
[Andy Goram] (34:30 - 35:38)
It's definitely a lot of that. I mean, I think that whole breadth of opportunity within our industry is huge and really quite possibly underplayed and not even understood. So I think there's definitely that side of it.
I think in terms of the leadership capability, because we started this conversation talking about the gaps that are being left behind by some of the generational migration, behind that sort of like the different, I guess, approaches or mindsets or expectations of people coming through. We've talked about the skill gaps being left behind, not just the number of people, but the real skill gap and that kind of deep hospitality knowledge. And we're looking for people who get hospitality, want hospitality and understand what it takes to lead people and very often get people who are maybe less motivated than we'd like them to be to get stuff done.
And so when we think about that, do you think there's an opportunity to integrate some of these leadership skills far earlier into hospitality training as well as combine the perspective of breadth and opportunity?
[Michelle Pascoe] (35:38 - 37:37)
Yeah, I definitely do. Now, I'll give you an example. I said I'm working with this new leadership team.
You know, we've only just started like five days ago. Very different to any other venue that I've worked with in three decades. And why that is, is because the leadership team also do frontline work.
So they may be a duty manager, a supervisor for half of their shift, maybe for four hours, and then they go into the role of being a frontline person and pouring beers. And so what, and at first I thought, my goodness, my head would be going all around the place. But they said it's great because whoever that duty manager is on the day, they know when those other managers and supervisors are in that frontline role, they don't have to be going over there and micromanaging them.
They know that it's going to work really well. But they also, that person who's in that frontline, who's also a manager, respect that role of the duty manager and know the work that they have to do. So as I said, it's very unusual, but it's this beautiful combination that works.
And it's some of them, as I said, have been there for nearly 20 years on this same way that they're doing things. I think it's very interesting. So it lessens that us and them, but it also connects them as leaders with actually working side by side with their frontline team.
So the frontline teams are seeing them not micromanaging them, but working alongside them. So it's that to me, particularly for Gen Z, it's this real unusual connection of we're doing this together, we're growing together, we're managing, we're leading. And you can be in this role now, and you can be in a leadership role tomorrow in a very short space of time.
Why Human Connection Is Still the Heart of Hospitality
[Andy Goram] (37:37 - 38:36)
I think that is interesting. That is interesting, because maybe traditionally, when we're dealing with that employee manager piece, there's a danger sometimes that if you are always jumping in to sort of like, roll your sleeves up and do the work, you become the default for that. So the employees kind of like don't do what they need to do, because well, they'll pop in, they'll sort it out, they'll roll the sleeves up.
But when you talk to people, they're like, I don't know, it's a good thing, right, me jumping in, that shows I'm one of the team. Great. When this works, and when you can actually separate the things you need to do from a management leadership perspective, and be there and support and role model, all the other great stuff, fantastic.
It's where people struggle blurring the lines between the two, and then don't do the management leadership stuff. So it's really interesting to sort of see it is really working. So there must be some clear understanding and some great framework behind that to make that work.
[Michelle Pascoe] (38:36 - 39:54)
Yeah, and it's very clear on the roster. You did this for four hours, and you did that for four hours, you know, so to speak. So it's very, very clear understanding of what their roles are.
So yeah, look, I'm sure we'll have further conversations, but this is just my first week with them. And look, I was honest, because a young chap said to me, have you seen this anywhere else, Michelle? And I said, no, I haven't.
And I'm not saying that it's wrong. I'm just going to, I'm going to really be fascinated in seeing how you work as this team, going from that role of leadership, and then to that role of being your peers. But as I said, some of them have been doing it for many, many years, and it works very, very well.
So I thought, once again, Andy, this is just showing you, they've got, you know, it's a CEO who came in, who introduced us to a young team, you know, you know, he'd be a, I'd say he'd have to be a Gen Y, you know, that customer. So he's brought in this idea, and I'm thinking, that's a challenge to what we've done in the past in hospitality. That's what we need to look for, don't we, Andy?
Those people that will challenge those sacred cows, well, this is always the way we've done it. And let's have a go and see if it works. Now, it may not work for everybody.
But I think in anything in life, you've got to give it a go.
[Andy Goram] (39:55 - 40:40)
Absolutely. I think we have to. I think that would be a really interesting thing to sort of see how that plays out, and whether that would clearly, clearly, it's going to be a different way of doing things.
And last sort of thing I just want to cover before we think about summarising up. You mentioned the younger generations wanted to progress more quickly, or at least quickly, shall we say, in their careers and sort of be seen to move on. And be seen to take the next sort of role.
How do you think hospitality can balance this kind of the need for experience and skill growth, but still get this sense of opportunity and opportunity for quick progression, maybe?
[Michelle Pascoe] (40:40 - 43:00)
Yes, yeah. And I think it comes down to that support of the senior leadership team, you know, as they're sharing their journey, but giving them opportunities to learn, shadow them. So, you know, be happy that, you know, they may be doing this role today, but it may be that the owner or a senior leader says, look, I'm going down into the cellar.
Let's just use that as an example. You know, it's a bit of a quiet time. So and so can look after the bar.
Come down and let me show you. You're up there with the lovely cold taps pouring the beer. Let's go downstairs and see how that beer gets to there.
And I'm using the cellar as an example, because it's usually not many people go into. It's the same as the back of house, you know, in the kitchens. But if you use that cellar and then they get to see the journey of the beer, how they prepare, how that cellar, you know, some cellars I've been in, you could lick and eat off the floor.
They are so spotlessly clean and they need to be. But it's that hygiene. It's about cleaning those beer lines.
It's about how you roll those kegs in, where you place those kegs, all those. And to me, that's an education where they go, oh, you know, I never thought about this. I've only thought about pouring the beer.
But now I know if this happens up there, has something gone wrong, not worked down here. Now I can understand about why we have different kegs in different spots with different lines. And so to me, it's that education piece, because they want that wisdom.
They want that knowledge. It's not just about how to be, you know, the beer comes out. But how does the beer get that?
And then it could be when you're having a conversation, if you're in a restaurant, you've got a grower or producer coming in with the produce, get the young chefs and even the front of house people, bring them out the back and get that grower to share their story. And then they go, wow. And I know this takes a little bit of time and people go, oh, my goodness, Michelle.
But you know what? Maybe five, 10 minutes is worth and make such a difference for those frontline people out there. And they're going to sell that special because they've spoken to the actual farmer.
And when that person is, you know, that young chef is preparing those vegetables or cooking that piece of meat, they know where it's come from.
[Andy Goram] (43:00 - 44:09)
I think that little bit of investment up front is all about giving people the opportunity, yes, to learn, but also to maybe find and uncover some enthusiasm or some passion they weren't aware of. Just by showing stuff. You can't force that stuff in people, but by just opening up and showing them, maybe there's some opportunity.
Maybe that is the trigger to finding more people who want to spend more time in this wonderful industry that we work in and lead others. And show them that it can be a hugely rewarding, fun and exciting industry to work in. Michelle, this conversation has rushed by as always.
We've got to the point in the show that I call sticky notes, which is my lazy attempt to summarize everything that we've talked about. It's so lazy. It's your job to do it.
So if we're thinking about leaving some advice for listeners here, as a hospitality industry, how can we better prepare or start developing leaders for tomorrow, today? What three little bits of advice would you fit on your sticky notes today, Michelle? Right.
Sticky Notes: Three Leadership Tips for Hospitality
[Michelle Pascoe] (44:09 - 45:06)
Number one, be a positive leader and show them what a leader is. Have those boundaries in place. Don't be the first to arrive and the last to leave and tell everybody, oh, you know, don't work so hard.
Be a really good role model. Ignite the potential of those in your team. Not everyone, Andy, sees the potential within them because of maybe who's in their family or who are their friendship groups or who that last employer was.
So you always ignite some of this potential. To me, that is the number one beautiful thing a leader can do. And the third one is, let's get out there and connect.
Connect with your schools. Connect with your community. Go out there.
Talk about what it's like being a leader in the hospitality industry and all the jobs that are in there. Because if we're not talking about it, then they're not hearing it from the people who it means so much.
[Andy Goram] (45:07 - 45:32)
Oh, love it. Love those sticky notes. Love talking to you, Michelle.
Always a pleasure. I'm sure it won't be our last conversation. Before I let you go, my lovely, where can people find out a little bit more about you and maybe some of the things you've talked about?
I know we're going to put one of your generational PDFs in the show notes so people can sort of read in and find out a bit more information. But where's the best place to find out about you?
Where to Find Michelle Pascoe
[Michelle Pascoe] (45:32 - 46:08)
Well, look, I'm on LinkedIn. I love LinkedIn. So it's really simple.
Just Michelle Pascoe. So you can find me there. My website is michellepascoe.com.
I also have a podcast like you, Annie, which you are my guest on, which is the Michelle Pascoe Hospitality Podcast. But yeah, look, look me up on LinkedIn. Let's connect.
Let's have a conversation because, you know, it doesn't matter how many miles are between, you know, the UK and Australia. We globally need to shout out loudly, hospitality, the place to be.
[Andy Goram] (46:09 - 46:17)
What a wonderful way to finish. Michelle, thank you so much for coming on, my love. I've really enjoyed our conversation and you take care.
Wrap-Up and Closing Thoughts
[Michelle Pascoe] (46:17 - 46:22)
You too, Andy. Thank you so much and take care to all your listeners. All the best.
[Andy Goram] (46:22 - 47:01)
OK, everyone, that was Michelle Pascoe. And if you'd like to find out a little bit more about her or any of the things we've talked about in today's show, please check out the show notes. So that concludes today's episode.
I hope you've enjoyed it, found it interesting and heard something maybe that will help you become a stickier, more successful business from the inside going forward. If you have, please like, comment and subscribe. It really helps.
I'm Andy Goram and you've been listening to the Sticky from the Inside podcast. Until next time. Thanks for listening.
Andy Goram is the owner of Bizjuicer, an employee engagement and workplace culture consultancy that's on a mission to help people have more fulfilling work lives. He's also the host of the Sticky From The Inside Podcast, which talks to experts on these topics from around the world.
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