Over the past two years, I have enjoyed speaking to many experts on employee engagement, workplace culture, and human leadership, from around the globe. I have loved listening to them, learning from them, and exchanging views and ideas on a range of topics and sharing them on my Sticky From The Inside Podcast. This latest episode was the first where I felt nervous about leading the conversation on the subject matter, which in this case was about E, D& I in recruitment.
As the episode transcript below explains, my nervousness came from a fear of what others might think about a middle-aged, straight, white guy talking about E, D & I. While I believe it is an important topic for the podcast to discuss, I am not an expert on the subject, and I was concerned about unintentionally saying the wrong thing, or offending anyone. It's crazy that I felt that way, but it's such a sensitive and huge topic.
In the conversation I speak to Nicky Wright, MD of Diversity Jobs Group, about the issues with how recruitment deals with unconscious and conscious bias currently, and what she is doing to make the whole process fairer, and ensure that the best person for the position, is given the best chance at securing that job. I feel like we only scratched the surface of this deep topic, and if I'm honest I still have questions on this matter. At the very least I hope the conversation is useful and can help someone. I guess you'll be the judge of that.
Below is a full transcript of the conversation, but you can also listen here.
Andy Goram (00:10):
Hello and welcome to Sticky From the Inside, the employee engagement podcast that looks at how to build stickier, competition-smashing, consistently successful organizations from the inside out. I'm your host, Andy Goram, and I'm on a mission to help more businesses turn the lights on behind the eyes of their employees, light the fires within them, and create tons more success for everyone.
(00:39):
This podcast is for all those who believe that's something worth going after and would like a little help and guidance in achieving that. Each episode we dive into the topics that can help create, what I call, stickier businesses. The sort of businesses where people thrive and love to work, and where more customers stay with you and recommend you to others because they love what you do and why you do it. So, if you want to take the tricky out of being sticky, listen on.
(01:10):
Okay then, for the first time in a long time, I am feeling uncharacteristically nervous about doing an episode. Today, I want to talk about ED&I in the workplace. And for those of you who aren't sure what that stands for, it stands for equality, diversity and inclusion. And this is the pursuit of ensuring fair treatment and opportunity for all. It's backed up by the aim to try and eradicate prejudice and discrimination on the basis of an individual or group of individuals' protected characteristics. And it's basically about treating everyone with the same dignity and respect as each other. So it's bang on sentiment for this podcast, so why on earth am I nervous about it? Well, I'll be honest... I'm a straight white bloke, for one thing, and ridiculously it makes me nervous about what people might think or say about me leading a conversation about EDI.
(02:09):
And look, I know that EDI isn't just about ethnicity or gender, sexual preference... But I'm not embarrassed to say that despite genuinely feeling that this is an important thing to talk about, it still makes me feel uncomfortable. It's mad, isn't it? That I should be nervous about talking about this frankly, important topic. And attempt to get better educated whilst doing so, and try to help others by shining a light on some of the issues faced by people at work today, and to try and maybe examine some possible solutions because of what others might think.
(02:45):
But what if I unintentionally offend someone, or put my foot in it, or what if someone just thinks, well, what do you know? And how do you have the right to talk about that? Well, they could be right. This is a huge topic, and I don't and wouldn't consider myself an expert in it. But that's why I bring guests onto the show, who often know more about the topics we discuss than me. And today's no exception. So look, within the realms of employee engagement and workplace culture, I think this is an important topic to discuss. So we are going to talk about it today in that light. And today, we're going to have a look at ED&I, specifically through recruitment and retention lens. So joining me today is Nicky Wright. Nicky runs a recruitment business that is looking to solve some of the ED&I-related issues for both job-seeking candidates from all backgrounds and clients looking to authentically increase the diversity of their workforce. Welcome to the show, Nicky.
Nicky Wright (03:48):
Lovely. Thanks, Andy. I'm really pleased to be here.
Andy Goram (03:49):
It's lovely to have you here, mate. It's lovely to have you here.
Nicky Wright (03:54):
Thank you. Thank you.
Andy Goram (03:54):
And listen-
Nicky Wright (03:55):
You're not alone... Sorry to crash you. You're not alone, that you are nervous to talk about certain subjects... I think that's pretty common. And also, sometimes I get a little bit nervous, but one of the things that I would say is it's better to say something than nothing.
Andy Goram (04:11):
Do you know what? I think we're in a place today, and certainly I feel like I'm in a place today, where... There's been a few topics over the course of the first 60 or so episodes of this podcast, where I'm really happy and comfortable because they're core topics for me, and others not so much. And I think it's getting comfortable with being uncomfortable, right?
Nicky Wright (04:34):
Yes.
Andy Goram (04:34):
Because we can avoid all these things and bury our head in the sand, and that doesn't help anybody. It certainly doesn't educate me and it certainly doesn't maybe help others who may be having the same sort of questions. And I think maybe, awkwardness, nervousness, unfamiliarity, are some things we may end up picking up on today. Because lots of people talk about ED&I, I don't think everybody fully understands what it is and the implications of it, unless you are really affected by it. I will get into some of that stuff today. But before we get into all of that really good stuff, Nicky... Do me a favor, introduce yourself to the audience and just tell us a little bit about you, where you're from, and the things that you're currently working on.
Nicky Wright (05:18):
Fab. Will do. Yeah. So, hi, I'm Nicky Wright, I'm a managing director of Diversity Jobs Group, which sounds really fancy, but working for a startup business as MD is not as fancy as it sounds. I tend to wear about 30 to 50 hats on a daily basis, and that includes making my own coffee or that includes looking at website creation or includes speaking to clients and candidates. So yeah, thank you for inviting me to do this podcast with you. So, the reason I joined Diversity Jobs Group is I have worked in the recruitment industry for far too many years, and my last role was working for a company called Compass Group, which is a large FTSE 30 business, as head of resourcing, and like most businesses, ED&I is hot on their agenda. And I went out to various different job boards in my role as head of resourcing, regarding advertising jobs on their platforms.
(06:17):
And I sat back at my desk one day and I thought, this doesn't sit right with me, Nicky, as an individual, because if you advertise jobs on one particular platform that might be biased towards moms, or might be biased towards the LGBTQ+ community, what about people that aren't moms or part of the LGBTQ+ community? So I thought, do you know what? We need to do something in this space and I need to create a job board where it's inclusive to everybody and it removes the bias. So to cut a very, very long story short, me and a chap that I work closely with, Joe Sweeney, created Diversity Jobs Group, and we launched that just before COVID... Or Joe launched it just before COVID. And I joined in October, 2021. So I've just done it over a full year now. So yeah, we had eight job boards, we've got nine job boards now.
(07:17):
Our newest job board is jobs for neurodiversity, as well as our other boards. But it wasn't just about, I thought there was a gap in the market. I am a female, I've experienced prejudice in my career because I've been a female. I've experienced prejudice for being a single mom, when I was in a particular role where I wanted to move out of a HR role into an operations role... And because I was a single mom at that point, I was told by, a man actually, that I couldn't do that job because I would have to travel. Which doesn't matter whether you're a single mom or a mom or a dad or whoever you are, if you have to travel as a job, you have to travel-
Andy Goram (08:06):
Hold on, hold on, hold on. A bloke said to you, you can't do this job because you have to travel?
Nicky Wright (08:12):
Yeah. And you're a single mom. Yeah, yeah...
Andy Goram (08:16):
Good god.
Nicky Wright (08:16):
You can imagine the language that probably came out of my mouth at that point, in an open atrium, actually... I think I shouted a few expletives as I walked up the stairs for said company. I've got three children and two of my children are actually boys of color, and what I don't want... And it's really bad, even when I had the boys, which are now 13 and 11, I was really conscious about their names because I thought, I didn't want to call them certain names because of what it would look like on a CV. How ridiculous is that? That I thought about that when I was picking the names for the boys. And then I've got a daughter as well.
(09:04):
So yes, I saw a gap in the market because I thought it wasn't fair on individual job boards, but I also want the best for my children regardless if they are male or female, regardless of their color, regardless of everything... I think, you called it equality, I call it equity. I think it's about fairness. You've got to have a value, haven't you? Within you. And one of my values, and even from a really young child, I'm a bit of a foot stamper if it's not fair, and I think this is important. If it's not fair, then do something about it, and put your hand up and say, this is not acceptable any longer, we need to sort this out. So that's a very long introduction... So I promise I'll hold back.
Andy Goram (09:55):
Listen, there's no holding back necessary on this podcast, but there's a lot to unpack there before we even get going. So let's have a look at some of these things. Recruitment. Now don't shoot me or fire expletives at me at this point, but recruitment feels like an industry in transition because frankly, it's pretty broken in places. The process people have to go through to get a job feels totally out of kilter with what people are looking for and how things should be done. The very fact that you don't advertise, or many people don't advertise, the salary they're going to play people is just bonkers. So I want to understand, from your perspective, someone within the industry, why do we all, people outside the industry, have this opinion that recruitment's a bit broken?
(10:48):
And then I want to dig into this job board stuff. Because I am an idiot... Because I'm listening to you and you're talking about job boards, and you're saying that job boards aren't fair, and you are talking about how... Well, you're talking about inclusive job boards that are open to everybody. How's that different from a regular job board? There's a number of things I'm trying to understand from the first few things that you've said. So let's dive into that first thing about recruitment being broken, through the lens of diversity. So before you set the business up, you talk about gap in the market... Just explain that to me, what was happening that you thought, now this isn't right, and why wasn't it right? And then, how have you tried to address some of those things?
Nicky Wright (11:32):
Okay, really good question. I believe that the perception from an outsider looking in, recruitment is broken on a lot of factors. And that's not just within D&I, I think that's in general. I think sometimes it's about over complicating things where things really don't need to be so complicated. I definitely believe that if companies advertise their jobs on a board for a particular demographic, so whether that be moms, like I said, or whether it be dads, it becomes unfair on people that aren't of that, and that's why I wanted to create a job board where it removes the bias. So companies post their jobs to our job boards, but I remove the bias. So what they can't do... So I'll give you an example. What companies can't do is they can't think, right, we'll post our engineering jobs on jobs for dads, but we'll post our admin jobs on jobs for mom. I remove that bias.
(12:41):
So what I do is we tap in, from a tech point of view, which is not my forte, that's Joe's... But we tap into, what is normally an applicant tracker system, so a career site, and when an in-house recruitment team posts a job, they can't pick and choose which jobs go to which board. So what we do and what they do is they post their jobs as normal and we post that same job to all nine of our job boards to remove the bias. The other thing that we do in removing the bias is we always offer unlimited jobs.
(13:16):
So what that means is, again, in-house recruitment teams can't think, oh, well we're really stretched on budget, so we'll only advertise our entry-level positions, for example, on those boards, but we won't advertise our corporate C-suite vacancies on that board... Again, we don't allow that. It's always unlimited job. So as soon as a job is posted externally, one, it goes on all nine of our job boards, and it's always, every single job that's external facing, goes on our job boards. So what we are trying to achieve is we are removing the bias, because there's a huge amount of bias, whether that be unconscious or conscious bias, that still exists. But if we can remove it from posting of jobs, we are making progress. We've got one step closer to making a difference.
Andy Goram (14:07):
So are employers coming to you because they don't want to put bias in their recruitment ads? Or are they looking to you to be able to target specific groups of people?
Nicky Wright (14:23):
I'd say the latter. I'd say they want to target diverse groups. But the companies that are coming to us, that are joining us... And we are getting clients, most days we have new clients joining us, and it's because they want to attract people from all diversities. And they are not so much homing in on a particular diversity strand when it comes to advertising jobs. Now that may be different. Some companies have aspirations, or they call them targets, which I don't like, but we can probably talk about that later on in the podcast, about targets... But they come to us because they want their jobs exposed to everybody regardless of who they are, where they come from.
Andy Goram (15:09):
It just shows what a wally I am, because I had no idea people were using group-focused job boards to filter out certain types of background. I didn't even know that was happening.
Nicky Wright (15:25):
Yeah. I think it's more, rather than to filter out backgrounds, it's more for... If you flip it on its head, it's more for the candidate. So it's more for the individual. They go to the job board that they feel most comfortable for... So I'm a mom, so I might go to the jobs for mom board. So it's more about the candidate going to the job board that they feel comfortable in. Because if they go to the job board that they feel comfortable in, they know that the clients advertising on that job board do want moms. Or likewise, you might go on the dad board, or you might go on the ethnicity board, or the LGBTQ... Whatever board you go to, we want the candidates from whatever community they're from, to go to the job board that they feel comfortable going to, knowing that the jobs they see on that job board want them. Want them regardless of who they are.
Andy Goram (16:16):
Yeah. So it's not a shock when you turn up that it's me.
Nicky Wright (16:19):
Yeah.
Andy Goram (16:20):
I guess you're doing the two sides of it then. So from the employer perspective, you are taking the bias conscious or unconscious out, but then it sounds like you are posting those jobs into groups where people will feel comfortable. So they'll feel recognized, they'll feel that this isn't going to be a shock or a surprise when they turn up and reveal who they are or show who they are... This is, again, the thing about being the middle-aged white guy... These things don't even float consciously in your head, that this is what's happening. Which I guess is why you're trying to do what you're trying to do.
Nicky Wright (17:00):
Absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah. We've got to make a difference, but we want the candidates to have the best possible experience they can be. So, one of our job boards is jobs for gender neutral. Again, like you say, it's to say, the companies that are advertising the jobs on our job board, want you. It doesn't matter who you are, they want the person, hopefully, most clients want the person with the right behavior... Because I always think behavior should lead to skill. But they want the people with the right behaviors, the right skills for the job, but the rest is really irrelevant.
Andy Goram (17:43):
Okay. So let's talk about these quotas then. Because there's a lot of talk around recruiting for diversity, and increasing the diverse nature of our working groups, and for employers to have a more diverse workforce. And within that there's talk about, or approaches, that revolve around quotas, about I need to have X percent of a different ethnicity, or I need to have X percent of... I don't know, neurodiversity, within my workforce. Again, I come from the background, this is again, one of those statements that's going to make me feel nervous, about having the right person for the right job regardless of the background... But that may be a very easy view to have. But I feel slightly uncomfortable with this idea of quotas and percentages, so what's going on with that? What do you see companies doing with regard to quotas, and should that even be a thing?
Nicky Wright (18:44):
What we see is, yes, there's a large amount of quotas. I'd say... Or targets, aspirations, it's the same thing regardless of how you put it together-
Andy Goram (18:55):
And what are they targeting, Nicky, when they're talking about quotas or targets, what are they targeting?
Nicky Wright (19:02):
Generally, and I speak for the masses, I'd say the biggest aspirations, where they home in on it, is gender, and the next one is ethnicity. Now, I'll give you an example. They might say, a company might say, we want a 50/50 split on male or females, in the whole business or in particular roles. They might say, we want somebody of color on each one of our leadership boards. Now what happens then, an in-house recruitment team get that job that comes through, and say, we need this role filling... This is our current demographics. So I'll give an example. This is our current demographics, there might not be anybody of color on the board, so what the recruitment team think... Oh no, that role has now got to be filled with somebody of color. Or again, they might need a female, it's all male, they might need a female.
(20:01):
So what the recruitment team then do is they start shortlisting with that... And I'm not saying everybody, but this could happen. Typically, they could start shortlisting and think, but we need to hit that aspiration, we need to hit that target. So some people might then be discounted because they would not then help towards that quota, that aspiration, that target. However, those people that might not have been shortlisted, might have been the right person for the job. So again, what we're trying to do with the job boards is say, if you advertise the jobs on the job board... If you look at a funnel, you make sure the funnel at the top is as wide as possible... You are attracting people from all demographics, all diversities, all inclusions. So that's the top of the recruitment funnel, and then the people, the candidates that then apply, should then be shortlisted for other things.
(20:56):
It should be behaviors, it should be skills, or any other matrix that they've got in, but it should not be around D&I. But as long as you've got the top of the open fair to everybody... So everybody gets an opportunity to see that job, and the right individual should then get chosen for the job or go through the interview process. But we're finding a lot of recruitment teams, when there is aspirations in place, stop really focusing on those aspirations, and then, the other things, the behaviors and skill, don't necessarily fall top. Now that's a sweeping statement, it's not everybody, but I'm just trying to bring it to the attention. It's reality and that is what's happening, and what you don't want to do, from a culture point of view, is then start hiring and that becomes known within the business. And then that really affects the culture when people start, when people are embedded within the culture.
(21:55):
Oh, you only got hired because you're a female, or you only got hired because you're of color. That is not right either. It's really hard... And I'm also conscious about how I'm trying to portray that because it isn't everybody, but reality is, that is what's happening. And if you said, we want a marketing director in Manchester, female, of color, ideally... Where's that fair? Where's the equity in that? And, actually, if you did the demographics and got the data of people within Manchester of color, that's female, in that marketing role, it might be for example, 5%. That then becomes unfair because you could be targeting in a really low percentage... And you are going after that low percentage, that becomes not fair on the rest of the people in that area.
(22:53):
It's a really delicate subject, but it's about being fair. One thing that I think aspirations would play a better part in entry level roles... So I'll give you an example. IT, some senior IT positions... Years ago there wasn't the amount of females coming into IT roles. So I'm going back 20, 30 years, it was predominantly a male dominated area. So if you are looking for a chief information officer, high-level role within IT, but you want a female in that role because you need to hit that quota... But again, I'm making this [inaudible 00:23:32]. But 90% of the population that chief information officers are male, it becomes then unfair. However, the aspirations for entry-level positions, apprentices, graduates... Is that not better to put your aspirations there, your targets there?
Andy Goram (23:54):
Actually, I don't know. This is where I feel really uncomfortable with it. For me, the principle of having a more diverse background in your business has to produce better, broader, wider, fairer perspective on everything. That is a place I'd like to be. And this is why I felt uncomfortable about having this conversation today, not about talking about seeking that principle and going after that landscape, because I think, well, why wouldn't you want that landscape? And it absolutely should be that landscape.
Nicky Wright (24:29):
Yeah, it should.
Andy Goram (24:29):
But the methods that you then start to approach, like you're talking about, in order to try and either hone in on a particular group or set of individuals, based on whatever filter, for one of a better word, that we would use... That to me starts to become delicate, because why should it just be focusing on entry-level to broaden your diversity? Great, you should have that anyway. Is it fair that there is, for your example, is it fair that there are only, using your hypothetical figures, 5% of CIOs that are women? That's the bit that's unfair. It's a really tricky topic.
Nicky Wright (25:17):
But we can't change what was done all those years ago and people coming into the industry, but what we can do is change what happened moving forward. So, talking about kids in school, and kids at college, and children going to university, is making sure that that bias doesn't exist then. So when children are... I say children. Adults going off to university, young adults are going off to university, making sure that the bias is not kicking in saying, just because you're a female, it doesn't mean to say you can't do that computer science course. It's important. And making sure that the representation from a very young age is happening. Because what we can't do is we can't go back and skill individuals up to be chief information officers, when that takes years to go from. Not always-
Andy Goram (26:15):
Oh yeah, yeah.
Nicky Wright (26:17):
...But we can't always fix the end, but what we can do is we need to fix now. We need to sort the root cause out, and we're having to start from the beginning.
Andy Goram (26:29):
It sounds like it. I think it's just... Maybe I'm just dumb, but it feels very, very confusing from my perspective. Because you really just want to put the best person in the best position, regardless of their background, regardless of their life choices, or their abilities... From either a physical, mental, whatever it might be, I'm a big, big believer in that. But how you grow diversity without it being unfair to other things, that's the thing that it gets confusing to me.
Nicky Wright (27:01):
Yeah, no, I agree. And I'm going completely off the subject now, but, for example, my eldest son, who is 13, goes to a state school... Cricket is not on their sports curriculum. He's a really talented cricket player. However, the private school that's over the road from his state school has cricket as part of their sports agenda, or curriculum or whatever you want to call it... Again, from a social mobility point of view, how is that fair? And that's looking back and thinking, that's still the root, that's not going to help... Let's move forward on this journey.
Andy Goram (27:43):
Sure. Look, I get-
Nicky Wright (27:43):
That's going completely off, it's going completely off subject, but I'm trying to demonstrate it's got to start at a young age.
Andy Goram (27:50):
I get that. And I guess it comes back to your funnel piece. If you're starting entry-level employees... In the main there's more of those, there's a greater number of those, as you go up the organization, there's less people in roles... And we can start to fill the pipeline for the future on a more diverse basis, fantastic. Great. That doesn't change the situation that we've got with not enough women on boards of businesses still. Which seems bizarre to me, as somebody who's grown up in businesses where I would say pretty much the top three people that led me over my career and had the most impact on me were female... It still feels bizarre that we don't have more people filling those positions who are females. That just feels crazy. But again, I'm a bloke sitting here saying these things, I haven't had to deal with that sort of stuff myself, but I can see it.
(28:45):
And I know there are many, many voices around the world talking up on these things far more coherently than me on these things, and have been doing for years, and battled... And I have people on this podcast talking about oppression and adversity and all sorts of things, all the time. I think in the area we are trying to talk about today, in recruitment particularly, and that will have an effect on retention... I'm just interested to see what it is you are trying to do to break the cycle, to try and make things, for both candidates and employers, fairer or more easy to access, and give people a real shot at getting the job that's right for them regardless of their background.
Nicky Wright (29:28):
No, I think... So from a candidate point of view, so an individual point of view, that's a job-seeker, that's looking for a new role or their first role... We want them to come to our job boards, from whatever demographic they're from, whatever community they are from, knowing that the clients, the companies advertising on our board, want them because they have the right behavior, they have the right skillset. It doesn't matter... Everything else is irrelevant. But they want people from diverse backgrounds. They want that balanced place to work. They want that... Where, like you say, people think differently, so that helps businesses grow. So from a candidate point of view, we want them to feel safe. We want them to feel secure, knowing that the clients advertising, they're the ones that want them. And if they're not on our job boards, it's not to say they don't want them, but the ones on there, I can say wholeheartedly, they want people from a diverse background.
Andy Goram (30:29):
You're not being discriminated against. It's not going to be a surprise when you show up. You have just as much chance of getting the job based on who you are and what you do as the next person.
Nicky Wright (30:38):
Yes, exactly that. Exactly that. And from a client point of view, so again, flip it on the head, because you are opening the top of the funnel up... And we are being representative in all groups of people, you are opening the top up. You are trying to fit as many people into that recruitment funnel for that particular job as possible. You are not narrow-sighted in thinking we only want people like that, or we only want those particular people, that's not the case.
Andy Goram (31:16):
But then people are still looking for... Or maybe setting out with a quota in mind. So, whilst they're fitting the funnel up, they're still going to filter it down when it comes to it. Do you see that?
Nicky Wright (31:29):
Yeah, less and less because technology is evolving and some of our clients have got great pieces of technology that then removes information. So when a hiring manager or recruiter gets an application and gets the CV, or whatever their application process looks like, a lot of technology now is removing certain information so that bias cannot be formed. There's always going to be a point where an individual goes in for an interview or meets on the telephone, that that bias can then start to kick in... But a lot of clients, again, are then making sure that their interview panel is diverse... So that is helping. But what companies are doing is they are putting more and more steps in to remove that bias, unconscious bias.
Andy Goram (32:21):
And so, from your perspective, in trying to make this recruitment engine fairer and give employers a chance to genuinely hire a more diverse workforce, what's been the reaction so far from employers and candidates to your approach?
Nicky Wright (32:42):
Candidates are... I had a candidate call me over the Christmas holidays, and said, "I think what you're doing is amazing, you're not discriminating..." This particular lady actually, was over 55, and she says, "I've not seen a job board like this, where you are actively going out there saying that these companies are looking for people like me." She really couldn't think highly enough of it. And clients are coming to us to say, "We love the fact it's always unlimited job posts... So that removes the bias, we don't pick and choose what jobs we advertise on your platform, and you are reaching out to communities."
(33:26):
So we are working with more and more community groups... We worked with another 200, joined our group last year, where we liase with these community groups, to say, please share our job boards with your groups, your individuals that come into your particular community groups... Because clients on our platform want people from your communities. So, companies that are coming to us are loving the fact that we are not just advertising their job, we are actively working with different community groups, and we're doing something about it.
Andy Goram (34:01):
I think, for me, the important thing here is that you are attempting to allow businesses to recruit a more diverse workforce without the specific funneling of a group. Which, it almost sounds counterintuitive, but that's, I think, what you're trying to achieve. And from a candidate's perspective, they're getting an opportunity to see jobs that perhaps they wouldn't have seen before.
Nicky Wright (34:27):
Yes.
Andy Goram (34:27):
And feel like they have a fair shot at getting that job. That doesn't get over the hurdle of any unconscious bias that comes to interview stage or the rest of it, but what you are trying to do, at your stage of the funnel, is try and enable candidates and clients to fill the best jobs with the best people, regardless of their circumstances. I won't say that I am crystal clear on this topic today, because I think it's a sensitive topic. I am interested to try and summarize your perspective on things, Nicky. So I have this bit in the show called sticky notes, where I'm asking you to summarize, in this case, if you are genuinely looking to recruit a more diverse workforce, what three bits of advice would you give them, Nicky, that you could fit on three little sticky notes, that they could take away?
Nicky Wright (35:27):
Really good question. First one is, it's better to say something than nothing.
Andy Goram (35:36):
Okay.
Nicky Wright (35:37):
Action, not just words. And this might be on the same sticky note as the previous one, because it's probably very similar, but it's doing something about it. So action, not just words. And the last sticky note has got to be fairness, equity... It's the right person gets the role. It's got to be the right person gets the role. But making sure that that role has been seen by as many people, from as many communities, as many backgrounds as possible. And that's kind of why we're here.
Andy Goram (36:17):
Brilliant. Listen, I think what you're doing sounds fantastic. Come back to that principle of trying to have a more diverse working background... Having a workforce across a business that has many more perspectives on things, can only be a really good thing for everybody. And I think the more we've got things like this going on, the better it is. Before I let you go, where can people find out more about your job boards and all the rest, where should they go?
Nicky Wright (36:52):
So it's www.diversityjobsgroup.com, and hopefully... Somehow I can send you the link. Again, this is me being not technical at all, and you should put that on your podcast.
Andy Goram (37:01):
Ah, it'll all go in the show notes.
Nicky Wright (37:02):
Fabulous, there you are. Great stuff, thank you.
Andy Goram (37:02):
Absolutely fine.
Nicky Wright (37:06):
Or follow us on any of our social media platforms, Facebook, Instagram, Twitter, LinkedIn.
Andy Goram (37:11):
Yeah, all of that will go in the show notes, mate. Don't you worry.
Nicky Wright (37:15):
Fabulous.
Andy Goram (37:15):
Listen, Nicky, thank you so much for sharing your time and your perspective on things today. I really appreciate you coming on.
Nicky Wright (37:22):
Amazing. Thanks for your time.
Andy Goram (37:23):
No problem, mate. You take care.
Nicky Wright (37:25):
Thank you.
Andy Goram (37:27):
Everyone, that was Nicky Wright. And if you'd like to find out a bit more about her or any of the things that we've talked about in today's show, please check out the show notes.
(37:40):
So that concludes today's episode. I hope you've enjoyed it, found it interesting, and heard something maybe that will help you become a stickier, more successful business from the inside going forward. If you have, please like, comment, and subscribe, it really helps. I'm Andy Goram, and you've been listening to The Sticky From The Inside Podcast. Until next time, thanks for listening.
Andy Goram is the owner of Bizjuicer, an employee engagement and workplace culture consultancy that's on a mission to help people have more fulfilling work lives. He's also the host of the Sticky From The Inside Podcast, which talks to experts on these topics from around the world.